Wolf behavior in captivity including excessive pacing is not remotely close to wolf behavior in the wild. In captivity there is a considerably higher level of aggression and anxiety between wolves and the linear dominance hierarchy (pack order) is usually present when more than two wolves are kept together.
The main reason for the aggression is that the purpose for a wolf pack to exist, survival, has been removed to there is no real outlet to release their innate prey drive and the built up frustration and anxiety from being in captivity.
In wild packs the linear dominance hierarchy observed in captive packs in most cases does not exist at all. If you read the latest research from wild wolf experts like Dr. David Mech, they hesitate even using the word Alpha and really do not discuss dominance hierarchy/pack order anymore.
What I find most interesting is that observing wolves in captivity is the whole premise of the linear dominance theory pack hiearchy model for dog training where the human is conceived to be Alpha in a pack with their dog or dogs.
This theory in recent years has taken two divergent paths, one being the positive/motivational/clicker trainers that believe themselves to still be the benevolent alpha in a pack with their dogs and the original ideaology old school trainers that also believe themselves to be the alpha in a pack with their dogs and try to mimic the aggressive wolf behavior and use force and compulsion including the Alpha Roll in training.
And this is all has been based on 40 plus years of observance, interpretation, and misapplication of abnormal unnatural captive wolf behavior.
Rank, alpha, whatever is real I've been doing it long before tv shows if you have to fight your dog to cut it's nails or your kids can't climb over your dog or touch their food, treats you can't say your in control or kids are safe with the dog. Corrections have there place and limitations they can make a dog do what you want but they are not going to make your dog safe with kids but it will tolarate them, it can encourage as much fight as the heavy handed alpha roll your thinking of wolves and trainers keep a pack in place with hundreds of mild and harsh corrections teaching them along the way what they can get away with and getting your dog to laydown and submit should be easy for any trainer if you raised the dog my 2.5 and 5.5 year old can from dog of only working stock one of the oldest still working cattle/catch/guard dogs around with lots of fight, prey and everything else. If you didn't raise the dog it would be more of a challenge and needs a trust level before you teach it to laydown and accept your dominance and your kids by just holding them with as little energy as posible but once it does it will work for you better and be safe it needs to be done regular my first rottie gave me a growl once when she was 4.5 when I was to cut her nails for the first time in a long time I reminded her I was boss and cut her nails. Whatelse are you going to do? back off try another day mabye If you go to the vet for some procedure your dog is going to submit one way or another how long it takes is up to your leadership I submited hundreds of different dogs at a clinic you can't do your job otherwise.
And wild wolves are much more agressive competing for food and rank only the best two can mate the rest don't, they are only at the top for a few years before someone else takes over and changes the blood. I have lots of video of wolves fighting it happens all the time.
Caged animals feed regular may pace and such but are usually much tamer then wild ones fighting for their life everday.
Below is one of several articles I can reference on the questionable subject of pack theory and linear dominance hierarchy. Things in canine behavior are not absolutes as many of you think they are.
Also, I suggest that if you think the linear dominace theory really works go get yourself a nine day old wolf pup, raise it for 16 years and along the way try to establish yourself as the alpha and use your compulsion techniques and see how long you last before you get seriously hurt. :wink:
A Fresh Look at the Wolf-Pack Theory of Companion-Animal Dog Social Behavior
Author: Wendy van Kerkhove a
Affiliation: a Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Publication Frequency: 4 issues per year
Published in: Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science, Volume 7, Issue 4 January 2004 , pages 279 - 285
Formats available: PDF (English)
A popular perspective on the social behavior of dogs in multiple-dog households sees the dogs' behavior as reflecting the sociobiological laws of the rigidly structured dominance hierarchy that has been described for wolf packs. This view suggests that aggression problems among dogs are natural expressions of conflict that arise whenever dominance status is in contention. One recommended solution has been for the owner to endorse and enforce a particular dominance hierarchy because, on the wolf pack model, aggression is minimized when the structure of the hierarchy is clear, strong, and stable. This article questions the validity of this perspective on 2 principal grounds.First, because it does not seem to occur in the wild, this article suggests the strong dominance hierarchy that has been described for wolves may be a by-product of captivity. If true, it implies that social behavior—even in wolves—may be a product more of environmental circumstances and contingencies than an instinctive directive. Second, because feral dogs do not exhibit the classic wolf-pack structure, the validity of the canid, social dominance hierarchy again comes into question. This article suggests that behavioral learning theory offers another perspective regarding the behavior of dogs and wolves in the wild or in captivity and offers an effective intervention for aggression problems.
All life forms have hierarchy be it an ant or elephant and interspecies not just prey predator hierarchy. We as humans also have it bosses, cops, taxman other primates also, this is survival for all species. If all the wolves in the pack breed you would have more variety smaller animals (dogs) but because only the biggest and best breed the species survives, we have tamed that down with all livestock we keep from cows to gerbils.
Actually captive tamed wolves are quite trainable and can perform complex tasks directed by humans using both voice commands and hand signals. The most difficult task is off lead recall.
Wolves and coyotes have also been used successfully in sled dog teams in Alaska and Canada.
However, force and compulsion will get you no where in training them except maimed or killed. Other methods are needed in combination such as motivation, mimicry, bribery, and "just plain asking them to".
So I go back to my point, why the linear dominance theory with compulsion to train dogs when the concept does not to any extent exist in the wild and does not work training captive tamed wolves. :wink:
If you truly understood wolf and dog behavior and tried to glean points I am trying to make you wouldn't continue to spew your own BS, contradict yourself in your own posts and need to have Xamen and Crnosce try to point out to you what your true attributes are.
So feel free to go ahead and continue to pontificate that your way and Cesar's way is the only way, but my experience and that of 1000s of others including many from this site is just totally opposite of that.
I've seen enough trainers over the years that were spewing and practicing the EXACT crap that you are that were open to new ideas, have learned from others and are now quite successful trainers using motivational methods with limited compulsion in police, street protection, agility, SAR, explosives, narcotics, cadaver, Schutzhund, ring sport, obedience, and hunting to name a few.
Do you think at one point in my history with dogs I wasn't doing and thinking the same as you? I hate to admit it but I was and I did. But I was fortunate to have learned from dog people who also did what you do, learned that there are better ways, and have moved on.
Truthfully, I feel sorry for you, for your inability to think openly and maybe learn something, and for the dogs that you are needlessly abusing with your training methods.
Well I' ve never worked with full wolves but I have worked on two half wolves at the vet clinic one was very good and submissive the other was calm and confidant a bit of a fight but he let us do our work by far not the worst dog I have seen just average for a clinic. I trained another half wolf half Shepard to not pull you down the street with everything he had in about 5 min just by turning around not jerking whenever he wasn't watching me Kohler style with a choker he protested every time for the first minute or two like a handler hard Shepard and most people would have given up and peed there pants he was a hyper near 30 inch out of control dog I just meet living next to an ex girlfriend, like many dogs raised in homes that have no idea what to do with a hyper prey driven 1.5 year old they couldn't walk him anymore but he was still OK with the kids but no manners he was walking with me very well and they used that method to finally be able to walk him and burn some of that energy off.
The dog and wolf aren't as different as most people think they can be more challenging but so are some dogs both can be trained using a variety of methods but they still have to be at the bottom of the pack for real safety.
Ignorance is bliss. If all the wolves in the pack breed you would have more variety smaller animals (dogs)
Quote "There had to be small foxs or something along those lines to go down from a 100lb wolf to a 3lb toy."
If you breed the smallest to the smallest it wouldn't take as long as you think It could be done in a human life span with many many generations.
Quote "I have always found it hard to believe that all dogs might have come from only 3 female wolfs."
I just found this study now It's nothing new. Quote from this site http://txtwriter.com/Onscience/Articles/familydog.html
"Using statistical methods to compare the relative similarity of the sequences, Wayne found that all the dog sequences fell into four distinct groups. The largest, containing 19 of the 26 sequences and representing 3/4 of modern dogs, resulted from a single female wolf lineage. The three smaller groups seem to represent later events when other wolves mated with the now-domesticated dogs. Domestication, it seems, didn't happen very often, and perhaps only once."
And the next one came from here http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news24.htm
"But no DNA evidence was found of coyotes or jackals in the dog family tree. The study showed that Fido, and every other dog in the world, was all wolf, the researchers said."
and another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog
and another http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4965516.stm
There are many more sites.
In most cases and depending on the breeds of dog used and the method of crossing half wolves and lower have the prepotency to act like dogs and can be trained as such even with compulsion.
This is a generalization and there are exceptions. I can show you a picture of an F1 malamute wolf cross that looked like a pure wolf and acted like a malamute. I can show you another picture of an offspring from a 3/4 wolf mal cross bred to a 7/8 wolf shepherd cross.
The dog had the physical conformation of a GSD, coloration, and marking of a mal and the temperament of a pure wolf. In essence a wolf in dog's clothing. Reason enough to not breed wolfdogs.
[quote=isla49]Why is it that nobody here seems to care about letting people spread the kind crap Paco is spreading? [/quote]hummmmm.. could it be that Paco is know to many of us and we are well aware of his credentials and experience with wolves, wolfdogs and related studies.
This dog looked wolf with the GSD back and was a fawn color with wolf fur and eyes and very thin I don't know where the fawn came from. Those people shouldn't have owned a poodle let alone a wolf dog they had no clue at all lucky the dog wasn't to aggressive but crazy hyper 3 kids getting him going all the time but I warned them he could still be a problem. I did what training I could, taught them what they could remember. I don't think they could have kept the dog he was a handful and was probably going to bite someone in the house. I didn't date that girl for long never knew what happened to the wolf/dog.
The first two were black the female was wolf coat the male thicker hair and build they were pretty good dogs but aloof. You get some people breeding these wolves in small northern towns so they can have show off like Canada's pit bull stupid.
[quote=gsicard]On Tuesday we went to the Virginia Living Museum in Newport News and I caught this wolf pacing. Check it out here
Actually Gary that wolf is not pacing, it's trotting. Pacing is when the two legs on one side of the body move forward in unison then the legs on the other side the same way.
After training a coyote, and many, many dogs, and spent time with both dog and wolf/dog and coyote/dog crosses, I reiterate, dogs and wolves (as well as other wild canids) are different. You can quote the genetic similarities all day, but they do not act the same and never will. There are similarities, but I see similarities in my house cat as with the bobcat I worked with, though they aren't the same either. Parker, I agree with you, as do most who know a thing or two do as well.
Carlos, listen to Parker if you won't listen to me. You were lucky to get away with your corrections on a wolf/dog.
Isla, I believe we all know Gary was talking about the action performed by the beast (as in the phrase, "Pacing the cage"), not its gait...
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