presa x kangal?

Well halfsam. You'd first have to contend with the various damage that you'd recieved to your body for even looking at me before you could think about hitting anybody in the face with dog doo doo. To AVN CC. Just like you said. The Corso is a recreated breed and has very little if any at all of the original Corso blood in them. What you have is a dog that looks like a Corso and little else. You say that they breed true to type for the last twenty years? Do you think that twenty years is a long time? First off. With the Corsos of old as in any breed that was used for function instead of form. There was no definate type. The farmers and country folk who owned them could have cared less what the dog looked like as long as it got the job done. A dog considered a Corso would have been any large boned ,fierce,wide chested and powerful animal that was protective of its home and suspicious of strangers. Sounds like a Bandog to me.

.

[quote=badams]Well halfsam. You'd first have to contend with the various damage that you'd recieved to your body for even looking at me before you could think about hitting anybody in the face with dog doo doo.[/quote] B*tch please...? :lol:

Yes it does Wolf but I wouldnt say terrier type dog. I'd say bull type dog. Terriers got their scrap from bulldogs and not the other way around. Though terriers are cool and they are functional dogs at what they do. Id have to say that a bulldogs traits were more valuable to dog owners of old than a terriers. A bulldog could protect your life and your famalies to. A terrier could catch more rats than a cat but I'd hate to have to rely on one for protection. Airedales are another story.

Halfsam. Dont go there. You cant afford to be insulting people in which you know nothing about.

.

[quote=badams]Halfsam. Dont go there. You cant afford to be insulting people in which you know nothing about.[/quote] I have to agree with Al here. And I'm not gonna go there. But you can't afford these half as threats to people in wich you know nothing about obviously.8) Nuff said! To be a bit constructive. When did the first pitbulls step on Italian soil? And when where they introduced to the CC population? And I'm not talking about the Lottatore Brindisino.

Badams, I really could care a rats ass what you think! I think that 20 years is a long time!! You come here with an attitude and fu_k up what could be an insightful discussion. You're probably all bitter and pissed cause you can't afford a good Corso and can only afford one of those fake pits that are roaming the streets. And remember, your pitbulls and your rottweilers and your dobermans, etc. were at some time mutts!! A breed standard was then created and the breed has to adhere to that standard to be considered a representative of the breed! Oh, how do you know that the Corsos of today don't look like the Corsos of old....? Where you there in Italy 30,40,50 years ago? Badams, please tell me if these dogs don't resemble each other? If you don't think so then I think you should get your eyes checked!! Pre 1970 http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-39979 vs. 2000s http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-39980 Pre 1970 http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-39981 vs. 2000s http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-39982 Pre 1970s http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=853&pos=1 vs. Post 1990 http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-39984 Now you tell me if the Pre 1970s dogs don't resemble the Post 1990s dogs...? ALV

ALV all I see is this: "Forbidden You don't have permission to access /photos4243/2/11/63/42/33/3/333426311209_0_ALB.jpg on this server."

[quote=contactcombat]what do you think about this dog? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3-dUoqPYXU[/quote] this is a great dog, but what is the propose of this cross? The parents are from 2 great and very funcional breeds, but with very similar functions.

[quote=HalfSAM] In America perhaps. 8)[/quote] 1)You're being Silly: In America, Cane Corsos are commonly spuriosly bred, but the Italian product is simply a more stabilized cross-dog. 2)Therefore, it is not the idealized breed ALV-CC spoke of. [quote=ALV-CC]Badams, Corsos are a recreated breed so other bully breeds were used back when to add more genetic diversity. Since 1986 there has been a standard approved by ENCI and FCI and for over 20 years the Cane Corso Italiano has bred true are pure and its qualities have remained. Some unethical breeders still cross them, but they are not Cane Corso Italiano. In the U.S. a lot of the Corsos you see or hear about are not Corsos but bandogs that resemble the Corso. Great specimens of each breed are hard to find, even APBTs. But good specimens of the Cane Corso Italiano have the drive and the characteristics of a CCI. No neet for pitbull blood. That would be polluting a breed that for over 20 years has bred true and to standard. If you want I can point you in the direction of breeders that have consistently from generation to generation titled their dogs in Sch., PP, Weight Pull, and other sports showing how the desired traits of the Corso (can't speak for other bulldogs) can be preserved and have been preserved. That way you can see how the APBT is absolutely unnecessary and it would be damaging to the breed. If I wanted to create a bandog from a Corso to "improve" or "preserve" its drives, I would probably use an AB as opposed to a APBT. ALV[/quote] -You're basically conceding to Badams. -If introducing Neo and Boxer blood produced a finer specimen, that's fine as long as you're honest about it. -Your dog is a bandog, too, then. -Pit bull blood makes dogs better. Since we're on about performance rather than romance, there's no fault in adding pit bull blood. [quote=Wolf"][quote="badams]A dog considered a Corso would have been any large boned ,fierce,wide chested and powerful animal that was protective of its home and suspicious of strangers. Sounds like a Bandog to me.[/quote] Just like any bull-terrier type dog with varying degrees of bulldog, terrier, retriever or cattledog blood that looked the part and was willing to scrap and did well in the box was considered a Pit Bull in the old days. People didn't care about anything except performance and whatever outcross resulted in a good product was good enough. Doesn't that sound like a Bandog to you?[/quote] All dogs come from some other dog, just like all dogs come from the wolf. The bull terrier is, as its name implies, a product of the bulldog and terriers, but it fits a specific goal. I also highly doubt that in achieving that hard to realize goal, other breeds were introduced. Nothing being achieved by trying to inject ambiguity into pit bull ancestry. Breeders didn't try to create anything ambiguous and the heritage is well documented and simple. IMO, Southern Italian working dogs seem wonderful, but had history had its course, they'd have been displaced by AB's and APBT's. Besides, to me, a Bandog sounds like mastiff type dog used in England for centuries until centuries ago, or a Pit bull crossed to an English mastiff or Neopolitan mastiff for the sake of protection.

This dog looks great. It seems he has a solid temperment and is of good health. If another EM recreation program occurs (I think it's much needed), using bull terrier/English Mastiff Bandogs and Turkish LGDs would make most sense.

Eagle: How I'm I conceding to badams? I say that for 20 years the breed breeds true and there is a set standard! Also, there are many titled Corsos that for over 6 generations have been Corsos. I have no need for APBT blood in my dogs. If their performance abilities disappeard or if they needed new blood because of lack of genetic diversity, then I would consider adding something else. But the PURE Corso based on the FCI standard is very well developed and I don't think we'll need outside blood. Also, read my other posts and you will see that I know that the Corso was a recoverd, rescued or whatever you wanna call it breed and other dog breeds were used as part of the effort, so No idealizing here. My only point is that in 1986 ENCI approved a standard for the CCI and there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER to add pitbull or any other type of blood to the Corso. As a matter of fact, every year more and more Corsos are being titled in Sch., FR and PP sports. That to me is proof enough that a WELL BRED Corso is more than capable of working without the need to cross breed with another breed. Eagle, if adding APBT blood makes for a better dog, then I have a toy poodle back home that might need some of that APBT blood. Maybe you can lend me one of your stud dogs and I'll make a Poo-Bull!!! That should be fun!!! :lol:

[quote="ALV-CC"]Eagle: How I'm I conceding to badams? I say that for 20 years the breed breeds true and there is a set standard! Also, there are many titled Corsos that for over 6 generations have been Corsos. I have no need for APBT blood in my dogs. If their performance abilities disappeard or if they needed new blood because of lack of genetic diversity, then I would consider adding something else. But the PURE Corso based on the FCI standard is very well developed and I don't think we'll need outside blood. Also, read my other posts and you will see that I know that the Corso was a recoverd, rescued or whatever you wanna call it breed and other dog breeds were used as part of the effort, so No idealizing here. My only point is that in 1986 ENCI approved a standard for the CCI and there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER to add pitbull or any other type of blood to the Corso. As a matter of fact, every year more and more Corsos are being titled in Sch., FR and PP sports. That to me is proof enough that a WELL BRED Corso is more than capable of working without the need to cross breed with another breed. Eagle, if adding APBT blood makes for a better dog, then I have a toy poodle back home that might need some of that APBT blood. Maybe you can lend me one of your stud dogs and I'll make a Poo-Bull!!! That should be fun!!! :lol: [/quote] By saying: "That is a good looking dog!!! I am more of a romantic with it comes to dogs, so I like the history (however fake it may be) of pure breeds! However, I do respect those breeders that are TRUE dogmen and create mixes for particular purposes such as hunting, guard work, etc. I would much rather have a capable Cane Corso Italiano than a Bandog of the same abilities, but that is just me! Nevertheless, that is one good looking dog and I like your kangals and the like!!!" you provide ambiguity about your knowledge/honesty regarding the Cane Corso. The Cane Corso is, as you admit, recreated - or at least enjoyed genetic contribution from one or more unrelated breeds - unlike the pit bull or Pharaoh hound, which are breeds whose lineage has been pure for quite a time. As it initially appeared, you considered the CC to have always been the same thing. Either way, once you admit reconstruction - no matter at what point it happened - you sort of compromised the argument that the CC is somehow more pure than a bandog. IMO, there are several Bandog breeders whose dogs fit the true qualifications for being a modern Bandog, and they therefore much better fit the pure breed status than the CC does.

[blockquote]By saying: I would much rather have a capable Cane Corso Italiano than a Bandog of the same abilities, but that is just me! [/blockquote] MEE TOO!! [blockquote]you provide ambiguity about your knowledge/honesty regarding the Cane Corso. The Cane Corso is, as you admit, recreated - or at least enjoyed genetic contribution from one or more unrelated breeds - As it initially appeared, you considered the CC to have always been the same thing. Either way, once you admit reconstruction - no matter at what point it happened - you sort of compromised the argument that the CC is somehow more pure than a bandog.[/blockquote] Well, I do think that if a dog has had a standard for 20 years (recognized by the FCI) and if it breeds true and for over 6 generations the dogs that were bred were according to the standard CCI, then in my opinion that is a pure dog. [blockquote]unlike the pit bull or Pharaoh hound, which are breeds whose lineage has been pure for quite a time.[/blockquote] "Recent DNA analysis reveals, however, that this breed is actually a more recent construction, developed out of different lines of European hunting dogs [4]. This DNA data now puts to rest the "Egyptian Myth" and proves the breed did not originate from Egypt." You see, you can't believe all that you read! Also, if i'm not mistaken the APBT came to be by mixing Bull n Terrier breeds that were brought to America in the 1800s. If so, then it is true that at one point the APBT was a mixed breed, a mutt, a bandog, whatever you wanna call it. The only difference is that the APBT was created longer time ago. So, RedEagle, how much time does the CCI have to breed true and according to standard for you to consider it a pure breed? If you wanna look at longtime unchanged dogs, then look at the Thai Ridgeback or the Chinese Chongking Dog. The Basenji is also believed to have long standing genetic homogeneity. [blockquote]IMO, there are several Bandog breeders whose dogs fit the true qualifications for being a modern Bandog, and they therefore much better fit the pure breed status than the CC does.[/blockquote] Really?? I don't know much about bandogs, but like you I have a lot of respect for dogmen that use mix breeds for practical purposes and uses them in the real world. One example would be the Australian Bull Arab!!! So please share with me, for how long and for how many generations do you want to see a dog breed true before considering it a "pure bred" dog??? Thanks, ALV [/quote]

.

Lee, do you mind mentioning these breeds? Looks are looks, they're not genes or pedigrees, but the apperance Pits share with certain terriers and American bulldogs - dogs, though related, not diresctly in the APBT's heritage - make it hard to believe that anything but bulldogs and terriers shaped the breed. Further, the number of good working dogs in this world is limited, and has become increasingly limited over the past 100 or more years.

Pointers, Spanish Pointers, Foxhounds, Whippets and Greyhounds might have helped the early Pitbulls. Apart from liver, black and tan and rednose, Whippets have the same colours Pitbulls may have (even seal).

I wonder why there are so many crazy crosses in the Netherlands, probably because Pitbulls are banned there.

I hope it won't be used for fighting !

When were the pit bulls introduced to Holland? I would assume they fulfilled a desire for fighting dogs, but I doubt Holland has a history of fighting dogs, so were they imported by others than the Dutch? How long have pits been bred in Holland? What lines do they come from back in America?

Around 1984 I guess.

).

pit bulls are now legal in holland again

Μontana i have seen this dog few months ago at youtube.Do you know his weight and a few things about this dog?temp?guarding?

[quote=Montana]http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bBCvjjS47U&feature=related ^^^ Dozer (Malakli) Father of the Bandog shown in this topic.[/quote]LOL I always get a kick out of watching the pros handle their dogs. Anyone else notice the flexi lead? That guy must have supreme confidence that his dog will never lunge at anything, it has to be genetics or maybe he took it to obedience classes. Nice looking dog, I wish I could see it do something.

[quote=isla49"][quote="Montana]http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bBCvjjS47U&feature=related ^^^ Dozer (Malakli) Father of the Bandog shown in this topic.[/quote]LOL I always get a kick out of watching the pros handle their dogs. Anyone else notice the flexi lead? That guy must have supreme confidence that his dog will never lunge at anything, it has to be genetics or maybe he took it to obedience classes. Nice looking dog, I wish I could see it do something.[/quote] Is that the dog's home turf?

[quote=Vilison] Well THAT'S stating the obvious isn't it![/quote] Once you pass high school, you realize nothing's obvious - man's observations of reality usually aren't that. I appreciate the information, though. What stimulated the importation?

in the seventies don mayfield sold some pure tudors dibo dogs to keystone kennels wher he still has the mayfield line pure. mayfield also sold some pure dibo dogs to japanese fellows who came here to get them to cross with tosas. most of the matches the pitbulls were just begining to fight when the tosas tired of skin holds , then the gamedogs would get the better and some tosas wer killed before the 30 minute mark for the ring, but the japanese did not like the fact that gamedogs will make noise from pain , and only bred the most silent ones. facts its all documented.

Keystone Kennels?

what about it? hes a low key breeder, and most outcrosses to the purer families produce dynamite the first cross.

Wow! Outstanding cross. I've been eyeballing the Turkish dogs for some time, they have always impressed me. I've been quite curious to see how they cross with my other loves, the Presa Canario and the APBT. Mighty impressive, I must say. I had thought that seeing the results of such a cross would have to wait until I could do one myself, but its good to know there are other experimenters out there who aren't afraid of tinkering a little with the majestic purebreeds we all love. Kudos to you, and keep up the good work.

A

vilison i know the same as you about what you say, pm me if you want to get specific. out crossing has its place in breeding dogs the same as line breeding and inbreeding, i have my own views on that, but i know that don kept game dogs, and when you use a line such as this with no outcrosses , to outcross to another line you get more athletes in a litter , that still has gameness, if you are not testing your line over the years it will lose percentage of good ones, no matter what eventually. look at the machobuck dogs and the like , 4 pure families outcrossed together making super dogs when they line up, but they come from distinct pure families that not as right as the offspring. the red boy line pure cant take it in the fast lane , some do, but percentage of all round athletes goes down , but gameness stays up. the way those dogs , at least from rod and some of the purer alligator dogs, i see on the same level of the old lines that went into the newr crosses being used. i think alot can be credited about a cross itself of close ken. pm me i know a thing or two about a thing or two.

..,

chill man, i do know what your saying, ive never got a dog from jani , but ive got two from rod out of a 5 time killer, grizz. i dont know about janis tests , but i know rod will kill a cur. like i said, i realize not testing over the years is nothing more than paper breeding show dogs, like the way some other pure families went, hemphil/ norrod for example. how could i knw you either , you live in canada. ive probly chated in dons old site with you it seems.

i told you to pm me if you want to talk specific, cuz all i said about keystone is that he got some dogs from don in usa in the 70s and it doesnt suprise me one bit that he hasnt tested the way they should have been , because hes in holland. rods got way more alligator blood in his dogs, and some just dont line up on the right genes , being pure or not, but when the right ones line up, they produce producers. i think some of rods dogs are thorough bred machines, and are valuable for outcrossing , for gameness. they are very early starters and deep game, i think they lack some athletic skill and or smarts , but they make up for it in gameness. my favorite line is the alligator line, i also like the mayday/buck dogs. lots of dogs are bred that dont have what it takes due to physical technicalities, but are bred because you know that dogs gonna produce to a less related bitch, because you knw the line and the winners that made your stud.

Hope the Kershner stuff works out for you and take care.

no no , im not demanding , i just thought you might want to talk about the lines , and go into how crosses of pure families produce better than both parent lines , and how pure lines are kept pure and not done as often , but are known to be crucial for battle crosses, look at redboy/ jocko , line i think one could get a similar bang considering the dogs are better today ,,from alligator, mayday/buck cross.

Take the fighting talk to Private Messages, or better yet, off this site.

[quote=Vilison"][quote="kbcouch]what about it? hes a low key breeder, and most outcrosses to the purer families produce dynamite the first cross.[/quote] Ah I see, THAT'S what mr.J.D. made you out to believe LMAO, low key breeder. Lets get down to the nitty gritty for real then! Man, from the 23 dogs we've gotten from 'mr lowkey breeder' ONLY Prikkie made the grade! The so called dynamite came about DESPITE those cur family/pure family genes and NOT because of it. [/quote] 23 dogs!!!???? Wouldn't 3 or 4 been enough to tell you what you should expect?

l: