Wow, this conversation has been ongoing for many years. Things have changed dramatically for me. I have had two more Fila's since then. Both Mexican Imports. One of them was dysplatic by 6mos old. The next is a little over a year and has great hips and Zero temperament, with ZERO socialization. I disagree with the theory that no socialization creates a better guard dog. The best "guard dog" I have now, is a 6yr old Cane Corso that has been socialized immensely. He loves people as long as he knows I'm aware that they're there. If I'm approached from behind or someone rings the doorbell, he becomes a totally different animal. A stable dog defends because you are suspicious or afraid, not because they are. In the past, I didn't believe that. The proof of that theory is in my yard. I now have 12 Cane Corso, 5 of them are Italian Imports. The other 7 are American bred, by me or by someone else. I also have the zero temp Fila. Like I said before, true guardianship comes from the dog having the confidence to believe he can win, if the fight ever arises. The Fila I had many years ago was a rare creature and I've come to believe it's not there anymore. I will admit, I'd love to have another like him, but I don't think that's possible anymore. He was very socialized by the way, it just didn't matter. He hated strangers regardless of whether he'd met them or not. If they didn't live here, he would attack them, period. For now, I'm very comfortable with the Cane Corsi that I have and their ability to defend. They've proven they won't run, on more than one occasion. I have though, socialized them immensely and the biggest difference is my personal protection doesn't wait in the car for me anymore. It's right by my side. JMHO, Jen
I definitely disagree with almost everything you stated but of course I fully respect your opinion, I just have different one. I believe that you arbitrary generalize judging only from your dogs. Having a fila with zero temperament though with ZERO socialization proves NOTHING BUT THIS FILA IS JUST OUT OF BREED'S STANDARDS. The rest one million filas with no socialization are formidable guard dogs, CREATING THE BASIC OPINION ABOUT THIS GUARD DOG BREED. There also thousands of socialized filas with mediocre temperament (poor once speaking for filas) that just prove how much the socialization spoil the guard dogs. Also it sounds quite funny to me to measure OJERIZA on a ...scale !!!!! 1-3, 4-6, 7-8, 9-10 !!!! You should mention at least that this a scale you have invent. OJERIZA is the Brazilian word specially created by Brazilian people to describe THEIR NATIONAL DOG'S DEEP AVERSION AGAINST STRANGERS, and been corner stone for this outstanding guard breed creation. Suspicion is CORNER STONE for GUARDING, socialization is the natural enemy of the suspicion, equals socialization is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO DECENT GUARDING !!! I strongly believe you cannot say I HAVE A FILA WITH 1-3 OJERIZA (sounds like the dog have extremely little of ...deep aversion against strangers!! extremely few of really ...lots of money, a really slow of an extremely fast car etc) MUCH LIKE A WOMAN CANNOT SAY I AM 1-3 PREGNANT TO A SCALE OF 10 !!!! either she is pregnant or she is NOT. For God's sake I REPEAT A FILA WITH NO OJERIZA IS OUT OF STANDARD. At this point we should make clear to people an important issue. There is CAFIB organization recognized from ministry of Agriculture in Brazil (at list till few years ago to my knowledge) promoting and preserving THE ORIGINAL FILA with necessary examination for the ...OJERIZA THINK !!! and there is the COMMERCIALIZED SHOP OF EUROPEAN-AND NOT BRAZILIAN-FCI(profit makers responsible of many breeds official degenration) A SHOP CALLED CBKC PROMOTING THE WATERED DOWN USELESS FILA BRAZILEIRO WHICH ACTUALLY SHOULD BE NAMED FILA EUROPEANEIRO OR FCIEIRO ! This organization of course promotes the couch potato edition of Fila without working examination of course. But I surely believe Brazilians should know better their own national dog. To prevent any weird questions, some Filas registered with CBKC and having really sharp temperament and strong OJERIZA is because not all these dogs are completely destroy. This will come with time. Just like GSDs, Dobbies, Rotties, Mastiffs, English Bulldogs, Dog de Bordeux,Bullmastiffs JUST TO MENTION FEW DEGENERATED BREEDS, struggling nowadays to find a decent working dog, in SPECIALLY CREATED WORKING LINES BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL ONES ARE DESTROYED!!!!, MUCH IRONIC DON'T YOU THINK ??? Of course PROFIT WISE IS MANDATORY TO BE DONE THIS WAY, I FULLY AGREE ON THIS. But lets stop talking about breeds preservation here Mr Stephanitz's and Mr. Doberman's bones will rattle into their graves. When you preserve a breed primarily you preserve the spirit and the working ability and then the phenotype, or you speak for another breed deserving a new name. Make no mistake, specially speaking for guard dog breeds, traditionally it was the working ability been based on the sharp instincts that formed and preserved the breed through the centuries and NOT the 100% genetic purity of the breed.
Also I would appreciate your opinion on what I stated years ago in this discussion "No guard dog breed in the world got the trait of been suspicious towards strangers because they use to socialize them (not logic right?)"
Your reference on your socialized Cane Corso's guarding ability, sorry but again in not much of a proof for me. I get to know dozens of socialized Cane Corsos completely useless guarding wise, my best men is breeding them and the few ones he keeps zero socialized for REAL USE, they made formidable guard dogs. I am happy for you that your dog can work as guard dog, but for me is the exception to confirm the rule that socialization is inversely proportional to guarding, period.
The living proof are the poor breeds as above stated GSDs, Dobbies, Rotties, Mastiffs, English Bulldogs, Dog de Bordeux,Bullmastiffs THEY DID NOT DESTROYED AT ONCE, SOCIALIZATION WAS THE LEVER TO SUCCEED !!!!! How many persons you beleive they could get close to Mr. Stephanitz's Horand (first recognized Gsd) and his early offsprings? how many persons could get close to tax collector Mr. Doberman's early offspings ??? NONE BEYOND THEIR IMMEDIATE FAMILY. CLEVER MERCHANTS THOUGH THEY USED IMMENSE AND THOROUGH AS A GREAT INSTRUMENT TO DESTROY THE INSTINCT AND THE TRAIT OF THESE DOGS IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO SELL REALLY A LOT OF THEM, BILLIONS OF THEM MUCH LIKE THE MONEY TO PUT IN THEIR WALLETS. LITTLE TO NO ATTENTION AT ALL THOUGH THEY PAID FOR THE WELL BEING AND THE PRESERVATION OF THESE BREEDS, EVEN THE PHYSICALLY ONE AS PHENOTYPE, THE SLOPE OF NOWADAYS GSD HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STRAIGHT BACK OF HORAND IS MAINLY RESPONSIBLE FOR DISPLASYA, .....BUT IT REALLY SELL LIKE CRAZY, SAME GOLD AND TAN COLOR, THOUGH HORAND AND VAST MAJORITY OF EARLY OFFSPRING USE TO VARY INTO THE RANGE BETWEEN BLACK GREY SABLE.
So this is what comes to my mind when I hear about the socialization marshmallow.
Much like you said, but completely the other way around I would say, I have the living proof of what a non socialized guard dog means into my yard. My Caucasian Ovcharka much like after my Boerboel, is the kind of the dogs that to my opinion justify the definition of the term Guarding, these dogs cannot get deceived by no means, will not accept food to destruct them from their job, will not low their tails or pull their ears back hearing the sweet voice of my lady neighbor they see her every single day, still is considered to be dead meat if they have the chance, in a temperament test 1st and last one same time (i emphasize no training ever took place with these dogs like no socialization ever permitted up to one year old, after this no matter how hard one can try they just want to eliminate any stranger no matter what), my CO attacked the agitator when in a full body suit and a helmet going hard on the dog at once, NO FRACTION OF A SECOND OF HESITATION, NO SECOND THOUGHTS, NO TIME EVALUATE THE SITUATION, NO MERCY, NO RETREAT THE DECOY ENDED UP INTO MY CAR DRIVING HIM TO THE HOSPITAL, HIS RIGHT ARM (HOLDING THE STICK) WAS CRACKED AT 2 PLACES, THOUGH THE PROTECTIVE GEAR !!!! Before he breaks into the yard he asked me not to be present and stay in home (2nd floor). I warned him that the dog most probably would attack brutally and he ensured me he dealt with caucasians in the past as well. He was certain the dog would need encouragement to attack because it was its first evaluation after all. That's why he asked me to stay inside in order to evaluate its physical instincts for guarding and the level of courage. By the time I spend to get down and help him out of dog's teeth, he confessed he started bit the dog hard in order to make it leave his arm. IT WAS THEN WHEN HE CRACKED HIS ARM IN AN ANOTHER PLACE AND HOLD HIM MORE FIRMLY, SHAKING AND JERKING HIM LIKE A RUG. When I was next to him he was in shock and he couldn't speak at all. On our way to the hospital he asked me what exactly I mean that I NEVER SOCIALIZE MY GUARD DOGS. I told him that though they got familiar to walk them out late in night, drive them up to mountains, or by the sea, they get to know town's noises, cars, cats or other animals when possible, THEY NEVER BEEN INTRODUCED TO A HUMAN AND WHEN THEY START TO SHOW AGGRESSION TOWARD HUMANS AT ABOUT 2 MONTHS OLD NEVER BEEN STOPPED. HE REPLIED THIS IS THE EXPLANATION, THE PREVIOUS CAUCASIANS HE DEALT WITH THEY HAD BEEN, .......YES YOU GUESSED WELL ....SOCIALIZED AT LEAST WITH FEW HUMANS. ACTUALLY THAT'S WHY THEY CALLED HIM, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SEEM TO PUT THEIR HEART IN GUARDING !!!!!!!!!
He told me how much he regrets he didn't pay much attention to what he been warned by me in first place, he said he never seen such an inhered reaction on the spot to his career, such confidence and such guarding ability and he evaluated very positive the solid fence around my property.
He has asked me to breed the dog with the tough big female of his associate, so to keep a dog for his personal protection and as his property guardian (for time be he owns a Cane Corso trained by him in realistic scenarios) and sell the rest for serious guarding in big estates. I refused, for me guard dogs is only passion and service, NOT MONEY MAKING, WHEN MONEY GETS INTO THE MIDDLE MOST THINGS GET SPOILED, DOG ARE NO EXCEPTION.
Well this is my perspective and I still respect yours.