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Am I Asking For Too Much...?

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Replies (51)
  • This is just my opinion. You are asking too much. You want a protection dog that has a low prey drive. You want the protection breed never to start a fight, but be able to end the fight. Because it was their job to drive off wild dogs and other predators some can e dog aggressive. However, with training and socialization it should be rare to have those issues.

     

    These are contradictory of a working breed. Working breed had jobs to protect the family, property, and or livestock. This means they have to have a good prey drive. They also have to be able to initiate the fight to kill or run off predators and intruders.

     

    Sure there are low maintenance dogs. For the most part these are dogs with very short coats. They only need the occasional bath and maybe a brush every blue moon. There are many dogs that tend to stick close to the owner. Most molosser breed do drool. The presa for example is considered to by a dry mouth molosser. However, there are some that will drool more than others. Only one of my presas drool.

     

    In all honesty no dog just want to please its owner. We say this, but truthfully that is all marketing. Some dogs are more biddable than others. But the dog only does what it does because it is beneficial to the dog. It doesn't do it because they love us and wants to please us. They need us for everything. Protection breeds are often aloof with people. They can be taught to accept people. This depends on how you train them. But that may take away from its reliability to be a great protection dog. Many of those dogs will not protect unless it is given a cue or command. It will accept the stranger if the stranger is not acting threatening.

     

    Right now based upon what you said you are looking for in a dog if I had puppies I wouldn't place a dog with you. Nothing against you personally. but I want to place my dogs in homes where I believe the new owner would be happy with their selection. I don't have a problem taking any of my pups back. But I know I can't guarantee that the dog will not drool. The odds say that it won't and it probably will not as a 8-10 weeks old pup. But it might later. I know it is a possibility that they might be dog aggressive/. I don't know how good you will be at training and socialization. We can't control environmental issues like that as breeders. My dogs should be loyal and protective of its family and home. But it is possible that it will not want to accept all people unless it is taught the no person is a threat. Then that takes away from the dogs protective nature.

     

    My suggestion is to really know which characteristics are the most important to you. Know which ones you can do without. Do you want Snoopy the great companion dog or do you want a companion dog that will protect and is confident enough to fight in the face of danger?

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    • I am sorry this dog breed is not available but you can order one, you should have heard about gene manipulation!

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      • I would recommend the Belgian Malinois: Very smart, obedient and has a strong protective instinct. Also the dog is short haired so is easy to groom and to my knowledge there is no "drooling" problem. If well socialized, the Belgian Malinois should be good with people and other dogs. It is a pretty healthy breed if you find a good breeder.

         

        However this dog needs plenty of exercise and training. Also, some of these dogs tend to be very nervous. 

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        • The BM can be independent.  It will run off. It has an extremely high prey drive. It can be destructive if you don't provide enough exercise and challenges. It is not normally a 95 lbs dog. 

          Again that dog doesn't exist.  You have to decide which character traits that you have to have and the ones you live without. 

           

          Good luck

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          • I appreciate all the comments.

            I always liked "bully" breeds, but having said that, I have been looking into the Beauceron as a possible option. Any thoughts?

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            • Nice dogs. I don't have any personal experience with them. But you can run into the same problems that you can have with any protection breed. They tens to distrust strangers. They can be aggressive with strange dogs. They were herders so can be independent thinkers. 

               

              I don't know how close it will stay with its owner.  

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              • I have seen many of them in my native country of France as a kid.

                I do like their tall, yet solid build, their agility and speed.  They are also loyal and seem to have great protection abilities, as they are being used by the French police and military.

                Also, being herders, I have a feeling that on hiking trails, they would want to stay close to keep everyone in check...?

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                • Being herders they may try to heard you. That is not uncommon in this breed from what I've read. Also some dominance issues is common. They are slow to mature physically and mentally. Again, I don't have any personal experience with this breed. It might be a good idea to talk to those that have owned them or that have evaluated them.

                   

                  I think it is a great breed like many other breeds. Many breeds have the same qualities as this breed. But none IMO fits all of the categories that you mentioned. One thing I was looking for in this breed that I did see was that is was bred to be a companion dog. I didn't see this on any of the sites where I did some research.

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                  • You're asking a lot, let's just say that. I'm trying to run different breeds through your gauntlet of criteria in my mind and so far everything is coming unstuck somewhere.

                    Beauceron and all other herding dogs actually have a lot of prey drive, counter intuitive to some people but herding is actually a hyper intense variant of prey drive, almost an obsessive prey drive. Herding dogs actually, invariably almost, make awesome hunting dogs and even most readily turn feral successfully out of all dog types barring perhaps primitive pariahs.

                    This includes herders, collies, kelpies, cattle dogs all of them.

                    That said, whether or not a dog will stay close on hikes in the wilderness depends on the individual dog and how you raise it or what you encourage from a young age, intentionally or not. In my experience it almost feels like a crap shoot.

                    Got a hunting lines bull Arab right now, a breed notorious for ranging so far it's often mentioned in ads for them tracking collars are necessary, but mine won't get out from under my feet, it's actually annoying. 

                    On the flip side I had a protection bandog that was attentive and protective at home with a subdued prey drive in many ways but in the wild on hikes he'd just wander off looking for animals and sometimes be gone for an hour or more.

                    The dogs with the lowest prey drive aren't herders but lgds, however at the same time they're independent and might decide to scout ahead or something like that, who knows, whatever comes into their head.

                    Bullmastiff/bandog types are typically a lot less independent and even though my male didn't most will want to stay close to you on hikes. A non drooling one is pretty hard to find though, and actually even an athletic one is imo, but depending on how high your hopes are in that category. Different people have different yard sticks there, as someone who likes sighthound crosses no bullmastiff or lgd breed is athletic or agile to me, but it's all relative.

                    Anyway, interesting topic, I'd just remember there is a lot you can shape in a dog, and then some things you can't, maybe you could use this fact to lop off a few requirements and broaden your search.

                    A beauceron COULD potentially fit your criteria if you played your cards right and had a little luck, but no guarantees. 

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                    • @tonedog 

                      i might be a bit of an LGD fanboy over here, but saying that LGD's are not atlethic or agile is pure nonesens 

                      don't look at dogshow breeders or most of the LGD pets. They are to big and to heavy.

                      all aborigional LGD's are functional in form and health

                      and ARE one of the most atlethic dogs around ! You just need to look for them in the right place.

                       

                      kind regards

                       

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                      • Like I said it's all relative, for sure they can be athletic and agile for their size, even the most athletic and agile dogs that exist over 150 lbs. But if I'm looking for an agile athletic dog I'm not thinking of lgds, maybe, with respect, you've not had much to do with extremely athletic dogs?

                        The only lgds I've had any experience with are serious working dogs for the record, in fact I'll be keeping some to guard my hair sheep within the year.

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                        • that's just my point, people expect working LGD's to be over 150pounds when they in reality rarely exceed 130 pounds.

                          big, heavy, to fluffy dogs aren't worth much to shepherds.

                          ofcourse there are more agile dogs around then LGD's, but as you said they are impressivly agile and for their size 

                           kind regards 

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                          •  

                            that's just my point, people expect working LGD's to be over 150pounds when they in reality rarely exceed 130 pounds.

                            big, heavy, to fluffy dogs aren't worth much to shepherds.

                            ofcourse there are more agile dogs around then LGD's, but as you said they are impressivly agile and for their size 

                             kind regards 

                            You are right
                            I have not seen a good LGD  who is over 55 kg. You see everywhere that working dogs are much smaller than their showdogs! A good working dog need not be more in order to have the energy to go after his sheep!
                            This has been a conflict in many countries between those who begets up working dogs and those who breed showdogs!

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                            • Agree with you guys, the 150 lbs figure is simply where I notice all other dogs are garbage athletically, and lgd breeds at this size are relatively still somewhat athletic at least for such a big dog relative to other dogs that size. 

                              I however would never want any dog of any type over 55kgs, including lgds.

                              But in the 55kg and under category I can think of more athletic dogs than lgds. My bull Arab is nearly 55 kgs and I've no doubt is far more athletic than any lgd. 60 kgs and up I think lgds are more athletic than other dogs, or struggle less under the excess weight.

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                              • @ tonedog what is "athletic" to you ? 

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                                • On my last trip to France while visiting my family, I met a guy walking an impressive looking dog and I stopped to talk to him. The dog almost looked like a brindle Rottweiler, but bit taller, leaner, very muscular and had a larger head than any Rottie I had ever seen. It turned out this female was 95 pounds and about 25 at the shoulder. According to this guy, her temperament was incredible, a natural family protection dog from the start. Here is the interesting part..., she was half Dogue de Bordeaux, half Beauceron! I wish I would have gotten his contact info, as he mentioned he got the dog from a kennel that has been crossing these two breeds for a while. Of course I tried finding them on line, but had no luck. 

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                                  • Excellent discussion! Thanks to everyone who have posted on this topic - it is good to see a substantial discussion going on. There are some wonderful breeds suggested already but I have a few to add to the mix.   One in particular caught my attention when I read through the discussion. The Price Boar Beisser is developed by one of our members WeaponX kennels - and the description seems to fit the bill. I have no personal experience with the breed or any of the dogs but its seems to fit closely with what the OP asked for.

                                    Based on the original post and subsequent discussion, I am suggesting that these breeds that may fit the needs without much work.

                                    1. The Danish Broholmer

                                    2. Price Boar Beisser

                                    3. Rhodesian Ridgeback

                                    4. American Bulldog

                                    5. American Molosser

                                    The Beauceron, Mal, BM and other mentioned breeds could also be shaped to fit the need but I suspect you want to start off with the most compatible breed to get to your desired traits.

                                    @Maxou - you described in great detail what you want from a dog but you did not share your physical location, living situation (farm, apt, house, rural, urban, suburban, neighbors, fence, dog indoor or outdoor, etc.) so that we can do a better job of helping you. Please share a bit of info about you and your situation if you can.  It does help us to help you.

                                    Thank you for posting this topic and allowing us to share our thoughts with you.  Our members are very knowledgeable about dogs and are always willing to help.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Gary

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                                    • Gary, I was a member of your board a while ago, but have not had much time since my baby boy was born 2 years ago. I couldn't remember my password and username, so I had to create a new account using my baby boy nickname

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                                      • Gary, somehow the rest of my post did not go through, not sure what happened. I will answer your questions later. Thanks
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                                        • With any breed that you choose you will have to live with the fact it will not have everything that you asked for on this list. The biggest concern for me is that you want a dog with less prey drive. Normally with a protection dog you want prey drive. If you look at the video posted recently about Working Dog is the Ukraine. You see dogs with prey drive. If they didn't have that they would not fight through the bag being swung at them, kicking, the board as a shield, etc. They would quit and run away. They prey drive and the belief that it can and will win is what drives these dogs. The Great Dane was unsure, but had enough drive to continue. The Rottie that was dodging the bag was and independent thinker but was determined to get the man.

                                           

                                          Dogs like the Presa Canario want to stay by its owner. Even though they were bred to protect they were bred to be companion dogs. They love to be near their owners. They seek your attention. They almost remind me of a cat. They want to rub against you or for you to pet them. They tend to stick close by its owner. However, that trait is something that can be done through environment stimuli. In other words through training that can be achieved. As I mentioned previously they are know to have some dog aggression. Any dog that has be bred to fend off predators can have this. But with proper training and socialization dog aggression is the exception and not the rule. The same can be said of many other breeds.

                                           

                                          Someone mentioned something about show dogs being too big. They are bigger than a working dog or something like that. That is a myth. I show dog is the should be bred to the standard for the breed. An excessive size dog should be disqualified. I've been to a number of shows. My dogs have competed in them. They don't have a show career. We don't go from show to show. We only go to get the dogs evaluated by qualified impartial 3rd parties to say they are good for breeding stock.  I've spoken with many judges for various counties. They will tell you when they see the big dogs in the ring that it is not about being big. The dog has to be within the standard that was created by the parent organization. Even though they weren't judging that ring the big dogs do poorly. They don't have the correct movement. They are over-sized. Of course they have other faults. Yes there are people that intentionally breed toward larger dogs. Those people do not breed towards the standard. They are breeding for their personal preferences. Their dogs are not breed quality. Kind of like the Rottie that I mentioned from the Ukraine video.It is not functional or as functional as they should be for that breed.

                                           

                                          Gary mentioned some specific breeds that he recommends. I can't comment on them all. But I have years of experience with the American Bulldog (AB). This could depend on if the AB is Johnson Type, Standard type or Hybrid type. Some Johnson might do okay, but I would recommend going more towards the standard or hybrid. The Johnson type has a shorter muzzle and often are on the heavier side. The shorter muzzle doesn't allow them to breathe as well. They can easily overheat. They aren't as agile. I got my dogs from Bill Hines. He's gone now, but his family is still keeping things going. His dogs were used to catch wild boars. If they were too big they wouldn't make good boar dogs. They would have been dead dogs like a couple of bay hounds that got too close.

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                                          • @egp explaine this to me then.

                                            this is a fact in LGD breeds. showtype are larger then the aborigional type.

                                            Fact: over the years alot of LGD breed standards changed -> larger, heavier

                                            believe me when i say there is a very big difference....

                                            the showworld adjusts the breed standard ....  

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                                            • I can't speak on that breed specifically.  I can only  speak on what I have observed.  It's not only my observation it is what the judges themselves have said to me and other breeders.  I have heard this at the I ABC shows, UKC, and at the USA Monographica. At the Monographica last year there was a huge presa under 18 months. So it's still growing.  It was 148 lbs. The Spanish judges liked the dog but verbally and put on the written critique about the dog's being too big.  More proof came later on the working test.  On the I defense of handler it probably was the hardest hitting dog there. But it was the slowest  dog to get there. It was suggested that they get about 35 lbs off of that dog.

                                              I've seen Rottweilers that were over 140 lbs that look awesome and they never place well in conformation because of their extreme size. No judge is supposed to adjust the standards.  At every show they are supposed to have a scale and something to measure the dogs height. If an exhibitor or judge questions the size they use it to verify. I've seen  it done. I don't know who questioned it. The large dogs didn't do well.

                                              I have spoken with breeders who breed towards bigger dogs. They make claims that their dogs are shoe quality.  Then while talking they admit never going to a show. They claim champion blood lines, but the champion is 4 or more generations back. I've walked away from those breeders. I have refused to sell a pup to them. 

                                              Also the judge is supposed to check the dogs. The check to see if a dog is fat.  The look and feel for muscle tone . If it is a show that give written critiques if the dog doesn't get enough exercise you'll get comments about the weak hocks. An associate of mines the had some  Olde asked me about this on theirs.

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                                              •  

                                                @ tonedog what is "athletic" to you ? 

                                                 A blend of speed, strength and agility I guess, same as the dictionary. Throw in stamina, balance, acceleration/explosiveness etc etc. All that stuff, and the more elite or exceptional these traits the more athletic.

                                                Or do you mean what dog is athletic to me? I'd say bullbreeds and sighthounds, in different leaning ways, but bull x sighthound hybrids are to me the ultimate balance of athletic traits.

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                                                • A quick point on size and dog shows - I think you're both right. Over the decades kennel clubs can and do adjust standards and what were largish dogs a century go in their natural working form can become gigantic freaks (great Dane a good example) but conformation standards actually keep a lid on this to a degree, the worst offenders are dogs not bred for shows but bred for cashing in on hype. Breeds like boerboels and boz kangals have put on 50 odd kgs in the last 10 years, which is obscene and totally unrivalled in the dog show world.

                                                  Of course, real work is the most reliable way to keep a lid on it. Boerboels working on African farms in the way that shaped the breed originally sure as hell aren't going to survive at 200 lbs. Likewise for the dogs of Turkish sheep herders. 

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                                                  • @ Gary,  I live in a condo in a condo with my wife and 2 year old son in Los Angeles. The wife feels safe in the gated condo with lots of neighbors, but we will be purchasing a house in about 2 years, and this is when I will want to add a family protection fod to the family.

                                                    I currently have a female AB mix.  She is a great pet especially with the baby, but would never engage a human.  On the other hand, she was made to hunt anything she smells or sees, and this is why I can't take her on any trail.  Last time I did, she disappeared for 4 hours, thought I lost her.

                                                    Her brother controls bulls and hunts boars in the south.  This is why I want to stay way from boar hunting breeds or any breed with that crazy urge to hunt and or catch.

                                                    My previous dog was a Chow?Pit mix male who was just about perfect. He engaged a few times to protect me when I live in East Los Angeles, although he had no training what so ever. He listen to me extremely well, and on long hikes (12 hours) in the mountains, I wouldn't have to say a word.  He would always stay close,even when I took a nap for an hour, I would wake up and he would be next to me. When he would take off after a coyote, he would only do so if allowed, and would never leave for more than 2-3 minutes.

                                                    I love crossed breeds the most, and hope to get a similar dog as my previous one.  

                                                    Once we have the house, he/she will be sleeping inside the house. Size is important and agility, stamina and speed is also crucial.  I am not into the barrel stocky body type, but more into the leaner, longer, taller muscular body type 25 inches at the shoulder, 90 lbs, and short hair. 

                                                    If you are aware of breeders that have serious established programs crossing some bully/mastiff types of dogs with other leaner, more athletic breeds, that might be a good place for me to start looking. 

                                                    Thanks

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                                                    • @tonedog. Yes and no. Breed clubs are not the ones that make adjustment to the breed standard. It is the parent organization that make those changes. Then the breed club is supposed to enforce those changes. I used to believe it was all AKC, UKC, etc until I learned the process. You are correct we both are right. There are judges that make their on rules so to speak. I've had that done to me. It was a foreign judge. I had 2 dog in the same show. There were several other dogs in too. My 2 dogs were going to be one and two. Then the judge did something they are not supposed to do. He picked one dog over the other. They are supposed to pick the dog that closest meet the standard and they should have an Idea of what the standard looks like in their mind. He explained how they were very close. That was understandable since they were litter mates. He mentioned the strengths of both dogs and he was correct. He never mentioned the faults of the one dog he eventually chose, which was a strength of the other dog that he didn't mention. He said he has boxers and they are head dogs and that the presa are head dogs too. So he chose the one dog because her eyes were darker than the other dog's eyes. That is not listed in our breed standard. Our standard says they eyes has to be the same color. They have to be brown. Then somehow we had the same judge the next day and that is to supposed to happen. There were more dogs in the show the next day. Again my two were the top two. He made us run the course several more times like before. Even though I have a disability and can't run and he knew I was in pain trying to run. Then he blew me away when he said yesterday I chose that dog, but today I choosing this dog. The same two dogs being judged by the same judge and tow different winners on consecutive days. Nothing changed on the dogs. If dog A was the best on day one the conformation didn't change on day two. Therefore dog A should have won again, but didn't.

                                                       

                                                      I've had judges that didn't know the breed. They have asked us if fawn was an acceptable color? I had a fawn dog. They've asked about the black mask be okay? My dog has a very good black mask. The absence of a mask is a disqualifying fault. On many occasions judges have pulled out the breed standard in the middle of judging to make a determination. With the rarer breeds and other Molosser dogs this is common.

                                                       

                                                      I now a lady the has some newfoundland. She looks at who is judging and where to determine where to show her dogs. She has the written critiques on her dogs. She knows her dogs faults. The judges gave he high marks on the dog faults. So if that dog need a win she will take where that judge is because he/she views the faults as strengths.

                                                       

                                                      My point was that people think that show dog are and have to be bigger, not well conditioned, etc. But judges do point out that bigger is not better in the show. Judge also inspect for well conditioned dogs.If you don't get a written critique you might not ever know this as the judges do not sit down and tell you the faults of your dog. But if you are in a show that give them you should listen to them go over your dog with you. Forget about the ribbons. Read the critiques. If they are not well conditioned make sure you get them more exercise.

                                                      Like you I don't want a dog too big as my protection dog. Sure they look impressive. But I want a dog that if needs be will go over the fence to protect me and my family. I want a dog that is agile enough to get there if there is danger around. One or two seconds can mean life or death. I don't want a dog too small that an intruder can easily throw over the fence. I have seen that in many cases that if a dog get over a certain weight it isn't as agile. I have seen exceptions to the rule too. This may also vary in different breeds. Off leash obedience will keep a dog close to you and have it come back no matter what prey is around.

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                                                      • Her is an example of a champion bloodline pedigree. Also most of the dogs have pictures. They are not on the larger side for the breed. These dogs can move well. Some also have different temperament test which helps to determine that they are functional.

                                                         

                                                        http://worldpedigree.clubdogocanario.ru/dog/id/13436

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                                                        • I think you ask too much. You cant have it all.

                                                          Beauceron in my country isn't fearless and when he is scared he will react aggressively. Also not good with kids.

                                                          I was interested in the breed years ago but when I red the character tests I last my interest.

                                                           

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                                                          • Interesting discussion and hilarious wish list, haha. Even more funny if you could point to one breed of dog that fit the bill. Even if 1 breed comes close to the list, dont forget that dogs are individuals. Specific breed traits will be there for a specific breed ofcourse, but the one german sheperd is not the other. One can be good with dogs, the other horrible. One a good natural protector, the other no desire to protect you at all. Dogs are not machines. They have to be bred and raised properly and then still you will have a large variety in individual characteristics in each individual dog. 

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                                                            •  

                                                              Interesting discussion and hilarious wish list, haha. Even more funny if you could point to one breed of dog that fit the bill. Even if 1 breed comes close to the list, dont forget that dogs are individuals. Specific breed traits will be there for a specific breed ofcourse, but the one german sheperd is not the other. One can be good with dogs, the other horrible. One a good natural protector, the other no desire to protect you at all. Dogs are not machines. They have to be bred and raised properly and then still you will have a large variety in individual characteristics in each individual dog. 

                                                              You are right
                                                              In my profile picture is the two small dogs, brothers but from different litters, there is a big difference between them!
                                                              A is very soft and very kind and the other very reserved towards everyone and can be aggressive!

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                                                              •  

                                                                Gary, somehow the rest of my post did not go through, not sure what happened. I will answer your questions later. Thanks

                                                                 Thank you and welcome back. Best wishes

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                                                                • Closest fit is definitely a bandog btw, specifically a neo x. Number 10 is probably the one issue very few if any neo bandogs qualify, but I believe bandogs that pass the rest exist. 

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                                                                  • I agree that a "small" female Bandog would be nice, just don't know who breeds smaller Bandogs. 

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                                                                    • Well I don't know much about bandogs outside of Australia, but I was surprised when I took my bandog to a pp event and the other bandog owners there thought my dog was a pure neo, and indeed there was a pure neo there smaller than my bandog, who was only 51 kgs, I think most of the bandogs there were 95 lbs or there abouts, male and female. 

                                                                      I think a lot of bandog breeders strive for size but most fail and finding a 90-100 lbs bandog shouldn't be hard, jmo. 

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                                                                      •  

                                                                        Well I don't know much about bandogs outside of Australia, but I was surprised when I took my bandog to a pp event and the other bandog owners there thought my dog was a pure neo, and indeed there was a pure neo there smaller than my bandog, who was only 51 kgs, I think most of the bandogs there were 95 lbs or there abouts, male and female. 

                                                                        I think a lot of bandog breeders strive for size but most fail and finding a 90-100 lbs bandog shouldn't be hard, jmo. 

                                                                         Have you had any dog (Irish Wolfhound + Bull Terrier) if,  have you any pictures?

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                                                                        • Never had one myself, would like to one day. Ebt x staghound too. I've got some pics of them on my photobucket but on my phone at the moment and it's hard to post them, will get back to you.

                                                                          Oh and Ebt x wolfhound definitely doesn't fit the op's criteria, lol.

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                                                                          • Most people that produce band dog that I'm aware of are trying to create a large superior dog. They believe they can get the best traits from more than one breed to create their ultimate dog.  Unfortunately genetics don't work quite like that. This is why golden doodles, puggles, etc aren't breeds yet. They can't produce consistency that is required for it to be it's own breed with a standard.  It takes  many generations of breedings to accomplish this. The same can be said for backyard breeders that don't understand genetics. They will breed a small dog with a big dog hoping to balance out the pups.  They'll breed a dog with a bad rear end with a dog with a good rear expecting balance and believing they have achieved it. Genes, genotype do not work that way. It is much more scientific.  Dogs have dominant and recessive traits. The more dominant trait they have alike the greater the likelihood the litter will have those same traits. There is a mathematical equation that will predict the percentage of the likelihood.  Recessive traits will show up too. There is a lot of research out there on this. 

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                                                                            •  

                                                                              Never had one myself, would like to one day. Ebt x staghound too. I've got some pics of them on my photobucket but on my phone at the moment and it's hard to post them, will get back to you.

                                                                              Oh and Ebt x wolfhound definitely doesn't fit the op's criteria, lol.

                                                                              Thanks

                                                                              Ebt x wolfhound definitely doesn't fit the op's criteria,    but i mean  to hunt wild boar !
                                                                              EBT x Wolfhound or EBT x Staghound, many say these are the best combination to hunt wild pigs in Australia!

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                                                                              • @eliteguardianpresas    Mendel's law :)

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                                                                                • Awesome 

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Also, there is a calculator to help us with the math. I've posted it before,  but I don't recall if I posted here r elsewhere. 

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                                                                                  • Remembered this info from a the dummies site.. :)

                                                                                    Genetic inheritance boils down to three simple concepts put forth by Gregor Mendel, a humble monk and part-time scientist who founded the entire discipline of genetics:

                                                                                    • Segregation: In diploid organisms, chromosome pairs (and their alleles) are separated into individual gametes (eggs or sperm) to transmit genetic information to offspring.

                                                                                    • Dominance: A dominant allele completely masks the effects of a recessive allele. A dominant allele produces the same phenotype in heterozygotes and in homozygotes.

                                                                                    • Independent assortment: Alleles on different chromosomes are distributed randomly to individual gametes.

                                                                                    Were you talking about the Punnett Square Calculator?  http://scienceprimer.com/punnett-square-calculator

                                                                                    But this may be the one you posted.  It may have an issue with Java or security but give it a try http://www.changbioscience.com/genetics/punnett.html

                                                                                    There is so much to learn about this stuff......

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

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                                                                                    • I don't recall which calculator that I've posted.  I read and research many things that are of interest to me.  I post on several different sites. 

                                                                                      I agree there is much to learn.  Many things we were taught was incorrect and have been debunked. Things accepted as truth today will be proven wrong and replaced with newer research. 

                                                                                      In regards to the calculator the online information agreed with my college text book information. It can be difficult for many to understand. Even with the calculator you still need a lot of luck when you are talking about genetics. If  you ate doing line breeding and can consistently reproduce mirror images it does not take as much luck. That is some tight line breeding.  But if you don't introduce something new into the line it will go extinct. You have to out cross are eventually they won't reproduce. 

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                                                                                      • Thank you all for participating in my post, but after 43 answers, I am still not clear what dog breed/cross will give me at least 80% of what I asked on my "wish list". After all it's almost Christmas...wink

                                                                                        I hear from Boerboel owners that the breed sticks next to you at all times while on trails in the wilderness.  Anyone has experienced that with the breed?

                                                                                        I would not want a Boerboel because of it's size, but would consider a Boerboel cross of some sort. Maybe Boerboel x Ridgeback? 

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Thank you all

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                                                                                        • If you want a dog that will stay close to you no matter the situation that can be achieved through training.  If you want a protection dog you get that through temperament and training. . Short hair dog are generally low maintenance as far as grooming and bathing.  Long hair do better in cold weather.  Short hair dogs typically do better in the heat. Short or snub nose breeds have difficulty in heat. 

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Getting a cross breed such as a Ridgeback X Boerboel  will no guarantee that you will a dog that is not too big that will stay close.  The pup might take on the size of the Boerboel instead of the size of the Ridgeback.  Thee pup ca take on the Ridgeback characteristics of being a hunter with a high prey drive.   It might take on the spine problems or other health issues common  of the Ridgeback. There are too many variables to predict the size, temperament, health,, etc. 

                                                                                          You need to choose a dog that you will be happy to raise.  Maybe you need to get an adult dog. As stated previously you are asking for too much. No ethical breeders should tell you that they can provide what you are asking for in a pup. We can do our best to match the right pups with the right owners, but we should be willing to not sale a pup to potential buyers too. Even if we believe the buyer might provide a good home and has proven to be an experienced pet owner the breeder should want the buyer to be satisfied with the pup. I want my pups to go to places that will be their forever homes and I'm willing to take every pup back and raise them. If I think the the buyer has too lofty expectations or desires I have to turn down that purchase. All dogs are individuals. They have their own personality so to speak.  Just like a breeder can't guarantee that a pup will one day become a great breeder or that a pup from a strong IPO line will be a great IPO dog as an adult no breeder can truthfully day their pup will meet your standards.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Also, I want to add you have finally said you can live with 80% bur you did not say which 80%. That makes a difference. 

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                                                                                          • So based on all that - go for:

                                                                                            American Bulldog

                                                                                            Bandog

                                                                                            Presa Canario

                                                                                            Cane Corso

                                                                                            They should be able to meet most of your needs.

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                                                                                            • Thank you both. I am not certain what I am willing to sacrifice just yet, but I know what will be my number one priority, family protection! 

                                                                                              As I tend to like cross breeds more, the Bandog will most likely fit the bill, but the hard part will be to get a trustworthy breeder. 

                                                                                              The first dog I owned in this country met about 90% of my wish list, and that poor boy came off the streets of East LA. One never knows I guess. 

                                                                                              Thanks for all your answers 

                                                                                               

                                                                                               

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                                                                                              • Good luck with your search.  You got lucky on that first dog. You can't breed a dog and expect you'll get all those things. It can happen but I would be lying to you if I said I expect my puppies to have all those character traits. Some of those traits IMHO are contradictory, although they can be achieved to a certain degree through environmental conditioning and training. I suspect that your first dog became those things that you are looking for because of environmental conditioning and training. Much like how an eagle teaches her babies to fly or how a young pup learns to herd or guard by being around the older working dogs and observing them work. I've done the same thing but  bringing a dog that has never been agitated nearby to see another dog that is skilled in personal protection. Soon the young dog will pick up the behavior and it's body language appears to be eager to run off the decoy. It is learning its job.

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                                                                                                • Didn't we all get lucky on that first dog?

                                                                                                  For me my exceptional first dog is the reason I became fascinated with dogs on this deeper level. Mine btw was a mongrel pig dog (Ebt/boxer/?)  x old English sheepdog, a fence hopping incident in a dingy backstreet of a small mountain town. 

                                                                                                  I really think no one has "perfected" breeding, just when you think someone is doing everything right breeding for elite performance you'll come across someone doing everything wrong, or nothing, and accidentally producing better dogs. 

                                                                                                  I started my investigation into why my first dog was so good (when I was about 11 or so, lol) thinking it must be the Ebt, assuming a pure Ebt would be everything good about my dog magnified, and then an apbt would be all that and more. I was wrong. The qualities in my first dog are exceedingly rare in even the hottest gamebred lines of apbt. More akin to 3 or 4 legendary apbts in history, which never replicated the extent of their quality in their offspring.

                                                                                                  I've had a lot of dogs since, all at least part bullbreed, and none come close to my first dog, not in courage, heart, gameness, nerve and all that good stuff, for man or beast. Most from elite working lines too as opposed to a backyard accident in a bad part of town.

                                                                                                  My plan now is to just go through a lot of dogs, with all sorts of backgrounds, and enjoy each for what it is. I'm convinced searching for that ultimate breed or mix is a fool's errand.

                                                                                                  0 0 0 0 0 0
                                                                                                  • Didn't we all get lucky on that first dog?

                                                                                                    For me my exceptional first dog is the reason I became fascinated with dogs on this deeper level. Mine btw was a mongrel pig dog (Ebt/boxer/?)  x old English sheepdog, a fence hopping incident in a dingy backstreet of a small mountain town. 

                                                                                                    I really think no one has "perfected" breeding, just when you think someone is doing everything right breeding for elite performance you'll come across someone doing everything wrong, or nothing, and accidentally producing better dogs. 

                                                                                                    I started my investigation into why my first dog was so good (when I was about 11 or so, lol) thinking it must be the Ebt, assuming a pure Ebt would be everything good about my dog magnified, and then an apbt would be all that and more. I was wrong. The qualities in my first dog are exceedingly rare in even the hottest gamebred lines of apbt. More akin to 3 or 4 legendary apbts in history, which never replicated the extent of their quality in their offspring.

                                                                                                    I've had a lot of dogs since, all at least part bullbreed, and none come close to my first dog, not in courage, heart, gameness, nerve and all that good stuff, for man or beast. Most from elite working lines too as opposed to a backyard accident in a bad part of town.

                                                                                                    My plan now is to just go through a lot of dogs, with all sorts of backgrounds, and enjoy each for what it is. I'm convinced searching for that ultimate breed or mix is a fool's errand.

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