Walking the Pack
"I don't consider it biting me, really..." WTF people? :evil:
Like most episodes, it's a bunch of people who don't discipline their dogs and need to be shown how. As usual, he's using his typical "power phrases" like "your mental energy" and such. :roll:
I do agree that one has to have a certain mindset when dealing with dogs (especially ones with issues like many of the ones on the show) however, the dog picks up on your body language, not your "energy." The mental state of a person simply effects the way you walk, carry yourself and how you deal with situations when they arise and that is what the dog reacts to.
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Replies (16)
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Want to share this video with you from Ceaser milan from the series The Dog whisperer. I hope I did this right. www.channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/video_preview_1html
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"I don't consider it biting me, really..." WTF people? :evil: Like most episodes, it's a bunch of people who don't discipline their dogs and need to be shown how. As usual, he's using his typical "power phrases" like "your mental energy" and such. :roll: I do agree that one has to have a certain mindset when dealing with dogs (especially ones with issues like many of the ones on the show) however, the dog picks up on your body language, not your "energy." The mental state of a person simply effects the way you walk, carry yourself and how you deal with situations when they arise and that is what the dog reacts to.
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[quote="Xamen13"]however, the dog picks up on your body language, not your "energy." The mental state of a person simply effects the way you walk, carry yourself and how you deal with situations when they arise and that is what the dog reacts to.[/quote] Yes, the dogs pick up on our body language. But even though I don't know much about this, aren't our bodies made of positively and negatively charged particles and we emit a magnetic field (energy field) that can be sensed by animals (and instruments.)? I don't remember where, but I saw a documentary about the relationship between dogs and humans and it was amazing how a dog would react differently when their owner entered the room (behind a blind) vs. when the owner wasn't there! On both cases the dog could not see the owner but somehow it knew he was there. It is true person's state of mind reflects in its body language, but i don't discard the possibility that dogs and other animals are able to feel the energy we exude (through vibrations, etc.) This is also related to animals' abilities to sense when natural disasters will strike. ALV
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Well at least he offered the dog a bit of cheese. I didn't think the man was capable of positive reinforcement. While I applaud Mr Milan for seizing the American Dream and getting paid to teach people common sense, when it comes to dog behavior, I wish folks like Dr. Ian Dunbar or Jean Donaldson got the spotlight instead. I am not the only one with this opinion... "He’s a charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior and in developing nonpunitive, reward-based training programs, which have led to seeing each dog as an individual, to understand what motivates it, what frightens it and what its talents and limitations are. Building on strengths and working around and through weaknesses, these trainers and specialists in animal behavior often work wonders with their dogs, but it takes time." Read more... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
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I think Cesar uses positive reinforcement. He always says to give "love and affection" only when the dog is in a "calm & submissive state of mind." This to me is positive reinforcement! Using love and affection as a reinforcer of the desired behavior which is the calm and submissive state! In the wild wolves and wild dogs don't get the treats and all the excited praise associated with today's positive reinforcement. And the pack usually follows a disciplined and fair hierarchy! Remember, Cesar is not "training" the dogs! I'm sure that if he was teaching them sit, down, stay, come, etc. he would use treats and other positive reinforcement methods. He is only teaching the dogs to be calm and submissive by teaching the owners to behave accordingly. In all honesty, when I see some dog trainers I think they overdo it with the praise and the extremely excited voices, etc. When I see him and his 40 plus dogs that include some rotts, ex fighting pits, etc. I have to hand it to him. I don't care how many degrees you have, Cesar knows his "sheit" and it seems to be a natural thing as opposed to others that have spent years going to school. Just my two cents.... ALV ps. I think the ones that trash Cesar are just jealous of his success!!
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ALV: I am not opposed to the man making money...I am opposed to overwrought dominance theory. Dogs are not lying around plotting to take over the world. They do what works for them and the sooner people realize that the dog is in it for the dog, the better. Every darned little thing a dog does that is deemed unsuitable IS NOT because of "dominance". I am happy that Ceasar has salvaged numerous dogs as well as many dogs' relationships with their owners. But I encourage people to critically evaluate some of his spoutings...Is there something to glean? Probably - but he is not the second coming. It's a good thing Ceasar is not "training" dogs because not much learning occurs during passive resistance. There are many dogs that are thought to be lazy, stubborn or plain dumb for the simple reason that they in fact, might need a paycheck. They might not see the point in doing something over and over and over again just because we asked them to. I am also not adverse to fair reprimands. My dogs get reprimands but they also get treats. We with the bigger brains should be able to figure out how to motivate our dogs by controlling resources. A resource is not necessary squeaky praise or a cookie (you're right...some trainers DO overdo it). It could be the opportunity to run, to play with the raccoon pelt, tug with squeaky piggy, to check a culvert, get a chewie, tree a squirrel, go for a car ride... In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)... "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy." You might find the research outlined in this article interesting. http://www.pawsitive.org/articles/dominance_theory_misconceptions.asp Cheers
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Cesar Milan is merely the hispanic version of Kohler but much worse. One of his favorite training methods is to repeatedly run problematic dogs on a treadmill to the point of exhaustion to break their spirit and then use the mill as a form of punishment when the dogs are not compliant.
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Sbates: I did not mean you! You merely criticized him and provided an expert's opinion on the subject. I think you did the right thing!! However, there are a lot of people that trash him! I could really care less about Cesar Milan and any other trainer! I think the problem is that people humanize dogs too much. I have a Corso, among other dogs, that has been trained extensively using positive reinforcement. We have competed on several occasions and placed among the top 3 consistently since she was a puppy. She is also a CGC. We trained using only positive reinforcement. However, I must truly say that she was much "sharper" before I started watching his show. I have applied his philosophy to the way we handle our dogs at home and it has made a world of difference!!! Particularly with our 14 year old male lab who was a "troublemaker." In all honesty, sometimes his methods might seem harsh but hey..... sometimes a spank on a kid's behind is looked upon as being harsh!! That is why so many kids are so problematic in the world today. No discipline!! Also, I don't see anything wrong with his methods of exercise, discipline and affection. In all honesty, have you seen how some "world renowned" trainers in Sch., FR, and even obedience use the choke chain and the E-collars to "modify" a problematic dog's behavior? I would rather use a treadmill until my dog gives in than submit them to the extreme corrections some trainers use with prong and E-collars. Also, I think his pack of rotts, pits, ambulls, living in such harmony is quite a feat. I would challenge anybody else to show me a pack like Cesar's. Regardless, I'd like to see other's inputs here as well!! Best, ALV ps. thanks for the articles!
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There is a big difference between judicious, proper use of a choke, prong or ecollar, (I don't use those tools but they have their place in limited circumstances) vs. physically exhausting a dog to the point that it fears a tread mill,which, is what he does. In thios case he's using compulsion, mental and physical cruelty and shows his true ineptitude as a dog trainer.
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[quote=Paco] In thios case he's using compulsion, mental and physical cruelty and shows his true ineptitude as a dog trainer.[/quote] Paco, I don't know which one of the episodes you are referring to, but all of the ones I've seen the dogs start out afraid of the treadmill and then they love it! In all the episodes that I've watched all the dogs seem much more content when being exercised than before! Also, you say he is inept as a dog trainer but then again I don't see him "training" the dogs as he is not a trainer. Regardless, I've met many trainers in FR, PP, and competitive obedience as well as animal behaviorists and none of them have the natural ability that he appears to have. Paco, please show us a video of you and your "pack" of 40 plus dogs that include fighting breeds and that behave so well and seem so happy. I've seen many if not all the episodes and although in some the dogs put on a big show, they end up much better than when they started and the owners and success stories and the show's success are evidence of his proven methods!! Maybe you can start your own show and teach him how it is really done!!! ;))) And by the way, I've seen trainers that are considered "experts" use prong collars and e-collars in ways that in my book are much worse than exercising a dog!! Also, could you please share with us your credentials with regards to dog training etc. I think that it would be fair for all of us to put things in perspective. Thanks, ALV
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Just like all of the rest of the reality shows, you only see on TV what they want you to see and people that blindly believe that everything he does is great and every dog that he comes in contact with is helped are fooling themselves. Discussing personal training views, credentials, certifications, and accomplishments is pointless, I won't waste my time or yours. It all comes down to the point that we all have our opinions and that this is a web site with much diversity and that is what makes it great. You can choose to respect Cesar and think he does good. I choose to have no respect for him and despise him.
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[quote=Paco]Just like all of the rest of the reality shows, you only see on TV what they want you to see and people that blindly believe that everything he does is great and every dog that he comes in contact with is helped are fooling themselves.[/quote] Point taken!! ALV ps. I don't respect Cesar, as I don't know him. It's just that his common sense approach makes sense to me. Much more even than the "professional" methods I've dealt with in the past. Also, I really enjoy and have learned a lot from Brenda Aloff's books on canine behavior and behavior modification.
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If it's on T.V it must be true!!!!! :lol:
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[quote=Paco]Just like all of the rest of the reality shows, you only see on TV what they want you to see and people that blindly believe that everything he does is great and every dog that he comes in contact with is helped are fooling themselves. [/quote] That's a very real point. I am still curious to see some numbers about how many cases haven't been a success as opposed to how many are. [blockquote]Cesar Milan is merely the hispanic version of Kohler but much worse. [/blockquote] He uses a "politically correct" and watered-down version of the Koehler method, spiced up with "power phrases" to make it seem more mystical and so that most of the stupid Californians he's dealing with will understand the idea he's trying to convey to them. I'll agree that he's much worse only in the sense that, as Sbates pointed out, he is very quick to label everything a dominance issue.
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[quote=Xamen13] He uses a "politically correct" and watered-down version of the Koehler method, spiced up with "power phrases" to make it seem more mystical and so that most of the stupid Californians he's dealing with will understand the idea he's trying to convey to them. [/quote] Don't sell him short, STUPID people everywere love this guy. :roll: :wink:
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