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Lee, David and other Bandog breeders on this board !!

Ummm Lee, you sound like you don't know who started this thread. Continuing to call me out of my name after I pm'd you who I am in detail is a personal insult. I highly doubt your dogs can be trained to out and if I am sunnyak how would I know some of the people that use to train with you no longer have anything to do with you because of lies they were told and told about them. I think they mentioned something about one of your dogs barking at it's chain.
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Replies (81)
  • [quote1327601801=potorico] so in 11 years you have tested only one dog from your program [/quote1327601801] Absolutely not. We have tested many dogs...in front of many people...including K9 officers and other well respected trainers...some with rather large government contracts. A sport isn't the only way to test a dog...nor is it the only way to find experienced dogmen that are impartial judges. Do you need names of such people? If so, ANYONE INTERESTED in names of objective experienced trainers that have seen our work and/or dogs can PM me...and then upon receiving those names they can contact those individuals to verify their credentials and their opinions of our work...but Potorico, I like keeping you guessing, because for years you have tried to argue with me...but to no avail...and I am not interested in your nonsense. If you want to point a finger at us in a way that makes us "look bad" (which is obviously your intent)...try coming up with something better than making ridiculous statements or false accusations...and I think it is funny to witness your lame efforts. [quote1327602203=KeyserSoze] Now that sounds impressive. So why didn't you continue to support that organization with future generations from Bullette? [/quote1327602203] I do PP first. I have nothing against them, but they aren't my focus.
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    • [quote1327603069=LeeRobinson] I do PP first. I have nothing against them, but they aren't my focus. [/quote1327603069] What PP trial have you entered a dog into?
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      • [quote1327603345=LeeRobinson] If you want to point a finger at us in a way that makes us "look bad" (which is obviously your intent)... [/quote1327603345] LOL that is your own guilty concience talking to you. How can you know obviously my intent,you a mind reader?
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        • lol this is funny. Potorico I gotta see your dog now.
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          • [quote1327604054=potorico] How can you know obviously my intent,you a mind reader? [/quote1327604054] Nope...I read your posts...and pattern your behavior. Butch isn't the only one that has worked, evaluated or observed my dogs. In fact, when I referred to experience trainers that have done so, I wasn't even thinking of him to be honest. Instead, I was thinking of people that AFTER evaluating our dogs they in fact purchased not one...but some...and then again later got others. So...until next time...peace.
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            • [quote1327604629=potorico] [quote1327603069=LeeRobinson] I do PP first. I have nothing against them, but they aren't my focus. [/quote1327603069] What PP trial have you entered a dog into? [/quote1327604629] did you happen to read this post? there is a clear and relevant dog question there
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              • I don't know when it was. Like you said...it was years ago. EDITED COMMENT: I looked it up. It was in Monticello, MS...April 9th, 2005.
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                • one dog,one test That is pretty low bar to set as a standard for a "working" dog program as I see it.
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                  • Potorico do you have a source where I can learn about all the different PP trials or protection sports events. I would really like to learn more about them. All I know of is Schutzhund and French ring.
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                    • I'm still waiting to see Potorico's dogs.
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                      • [quote1327608648=potorico] one dog,one test That is pretty low bar to set as a standard for a "working" dog program as I see it. [/quote1327608648] Absolutely not. We have tested many dogs...in front of many people...including K9 officers and other well respected trainers...some with rather large government contracts. A sport isn't the only way to test a dog...nor is it the only way to find experienced dogmen that are impartial judges. Do you need names of such people? If so, ANYONE INTERESTED in names of objective experienced trainers that have seen our work and/or dogs can PM me...and then upon receiving those names they can contact those individuals to verify their credentials and their opinions of our work...but Potorico, I like keeping you guessing, because for years you have tried to argue with me...but to no avail...and I am not interested in your nonsense. If you want to point a finger at us in a way that makes us "look bad" (which is obviously your intent)...try coming up with something better than making ridiculous statements or false accusations...and I think it is funny to witness your lame efforts. Now, here's an idea. Fly down...test the dog, and let me video it to post on youtube. ROTFLO!
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                        • [quote1327608787=LeeRobinson] Now, here's an idea. Fly down...test the dog, and let me video it to post on youtube. ROTFLO! [/quote1327608787] predictable lame response everybody's dog is a badass in their own yard Is this where these K9 officers an Trainers came to test yours?
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                          • [quote1327609245=LeeRobinson] [quote1327602203=KeyserSoze] Now that sounds impressive. So why didn't you continue to support that organization with future generations from Bullette? [/quote1327602203] I do [u]PP first[/u]. I have nothing against them, but [u]they[/u] aren't my focus. [/quote1327609245] Just want to be clear on your answer here.... This was a Protection SPORT Trial? Not a PP Trial?
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                            • [quote1327611250=LeeRobinson] . A sport isn't the only way to test a dog [/quote1327611250] I agree 100% What other public working dog trials have you entered with your dog? [blockquote]nor is it the only way to find experienced dogmen that are impartial judges.[/blockquote] I disagree here though You have the title Head Trainer in your avatar.........to earn that title ,you would have most definitely entered some dog you've personally trained,into some sort of Scored Trial to be taken seriously OB,Agility,WP etc.......and on top of that it would most certainly take multiple scored/judged trials to be considered a Professional. no? If you are a strictly a Master PP trainer....well then show the Forum the results/scores/placing on your stock from any other Trail other than that K9PS one from years ago....... You can't just make grandiose claims all willy-nilly without proof to back it.
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                              • Poto really your post are pretty attacking......number one as keyzer has asked where are your dogs? also hes the head trainer at his on kennel haha if he pays for it im pretty sure hes more than right to be able to call him self king of his kennel if he wanted to this seems silly and id really really like to get back to dogs and not a constant revolving door of basing lee..... if your a better breeder post some pics/vids..... the people that have never shown one photo iv seen have been the most common bashers..... im sure Lee knowing Lee a little more than forum reading but actually conversations that he would be more than willing to let you get chewed up by linebaugh so how bout this no bashing until either you show some of your stellar dogs or go down there and see them in person.........im guessing LGD's aren't good unless you compete them too right because killing wolves isn't good enough... silly
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                                • [QUOTE]im guessing LGD's aren't good unless you compete them too right because killing wolves isn't good enough... silly [/QUOTE] Well LGDs typically don't kill wolves, but actually you're highlighting the problem I have with PP dogs in general. Whether it's in your own backyard or at PP trials or whatever doesn't make a big difference to me, either way it's just dicking around IMO. Like bragging about the fact your dog plays tug of war. If you lived in some extremely violent warzone in the sudan and your dogs were fighting off machete wielding maniacs every second day I'd say those are some legit-ass PP dogs you have there. Don't know of any program with that kind of pressure on it.
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                                  • Do you really care for my opinion? Apparently not. So why bother asking. "Was it a PP trial or a sport trial?" Call it what you want. I don't care. The K9PS event was April 9th, 2005. As far as me "promoting" Bullette's performance in that event...if someone ASKS me a question, what is wrong with me answering it with facts? Are you suggesting that is boasting to promote my kennel or something? If so, let me ask you...did I bring my dogs up in this post? No, I did not. I was asked about my dogs and therefore replied to various questions to the best of my ability. So, while you may see it as promotional boasting, I see it answering a man's question. My avatar states "owner and head trainer at Chimera Kennels" because I am. I do not claim to be the owner or head trainer for anyone else's club or group. I didn't refer to myself as a "Master PP Trainer." Those are your words. Not mine. As far as what other public tests have we done. I have had police officers and trainers evaluate my dogs off my property...in town...strange settings...informal impromptu evaluations to see if the dogs met their needs or expectations. In every case, they have been more than satisfied and come to think of it...in every case such tests actually led to the sale of at least one or more dogs to be used by these officers not as patrol dogs, but for PP for their home and family. I do NOT for one minute think these officers were objective. I think they were in fact subjective but NOT in my favor...yet the results proved the dogs worthy in their eyes...and led to such sales. Their tests were more street application and PP in nature than what would be seen in what I CONSIDER a sport evaluation. Do I consider myself a "professional" trainer? Nope. Do I consider myself a professional breeder? Yes. I consider myself as someone that has a business that is nothing more than a personal interest due to the nature of our world and society...and because of my interest in dogs in general. I make my living as a science teacher, not training. To me, a "professional" at something means that is how they make a living. I do however think there are some amateurs out there that are just as capable in their fields as are some professionals even if they do it for pleasure. What I do with my dogs is done at my pleasure. If I make money at it, great. If not, I still enjoy it. I have trained some dogs for others, and charged them for it...time permitting...but that is not how I make my living. In most cases, I am asked to work/train dogs I have produced, mastiff breeds, or the various bully breeds, but I do of course have experience with the more traditional protection breeds like herders, rotts, dobies, etc. Anyone that wants NAMES/REFERENCES of individuals that I have given demos to or professional trainers that are familiar with my dogs is welcome to contact me...and I will provide them with such references...but Potorico...you are not a client (as I wouldn't sell you a dog) and therefore I do not need to provide you with any such references. "Grandiose" claims? Not here. I didn't use the title "Master trainer." You said that. Not me. Frankly, I have always gotten a chuckle out of such titles. IF HOWEVER Potorico would like to fly down and test the dog...I will gladly entertain him with a few dogs.
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                                    • PP is all very subjective your not gonna chop your dog to pieces to make him feel threatened.. its to make the dog think hes gonna die not actually killing it you don't have to be in Sudan to give a dog a good PP work out that's just silly and kinda shows lack of knowledge on how PP training works... but there is a difference in PP and sport
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                                      • [quote1327633680=tiger12490] PP is all very subjective your not gonna chop your dog to pieces to make him feel threatened.. its to make the dog think hes gonna die not actually killing it [/quote1327633680] Actually, you hardly ever make the dog think its gonna die. You almost always make it think it's gonna win. I think that is what Tonedog meant by "dicking around" or likened it to "tug of war" when it comes to PP trials. I have to agree with him that an actual test for true combat ability would rather be a real battle scenario (i.e. in a warzone), but that is just plain unrealistic these days. Since WWI dogs simply get shot, end of story. So people resort to PP to get high on what could happen should someone dare to attack them with a leather baton.
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                                        • [quote1327634669=Astibus] [quote1327633680=tiger12490] PP is all very subjective your not gonna chop your dog to pieces to make him feel threatened.. its to make the dog think hes gonna die not actually killing it [/quote1327633680] Actually, you hardly ever make the dog think its gonna die. You almost always make it think it's gonna win. I think that is what Tonedog meant by "dicking around" or likened it to "tug of war" when it comes to PP trials. I have to agree with him that an actual test for true combat ability would rather be a real battle scenario (i.e. in a warzone), but that is just plain unrealistic these days. Since WWI dogs simply get shot, end of story. So people resort to PP to get high on what could happen should someone dare to attack them with a leather baton. [/quote1327634669] ye you instill confidence because when that big bad person who was just trying to kill me runs away and i have his sleeve who won? But you push the dog to think hes gonna die that's why you have dogs run...working a dog in defense drive does this.... and a PP dog is so you have enough time to get your gun or get away and of course the number 1 deterrent
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                                          • [quote1327634760=LeeRobinson] I have had police officers and trainers evaluate my dogs off my property...in town...strange settings...informal impromptu evaluations to see if the dogs met their needs or expectations. In every case, they have been more than satisfied and come to think of it...in every case such tests actually led to the sale of at least one or more dogs to be used by these officers not as patrol dogs, but for PP for their home and family. [/quote1327634760] Lee, this is not a trick question, I am just genuinely curious if these police officers were actual K9 officers experienced in PP training or rather officers that one could consider novices when it comes to PP dogs and training? I am just wondering why experienced K9 officers (in case they were) would favor anything but proven police K9s. I will trust your honest reply on this - no references or videos necessary.
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                                            • [quote1327635135=Astibus]Actually, you hardly ever make the dog think its gonna die. You almost always make it think it's gonna win. [/quote1327635135] That ENTIRELY depends upon if you are TRAINING a dog or TESTING/PROVING a dog.
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                                              • [quote1327635227=Astibus]I am just genuinely curious if these police officers were actual K9 officers experienced in PP training or rather officers that one could consider novices when it comes to PP dogs and training? I am just wondering why experienced K9 officers (in case they were) would favor anything but proven police K9s. I will trust your honest reply on this - no references or videos necessary. [/quote1327635227] Both..and then some. Even some who own security companies with working dogs...or some that have large government contracts as well have gotten dogs from us to use as their PERSONAL dogs for their homes AFTER they tested them. Some have felt the service dogs were too edgy around their family. Others don't feel that way. I think some of that depends upon what TYPE of family they have. If you change your mind and would like to PM me, I can give you names.
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                                                • [quote1327636536=Astibus] [quote1327633680=tiger12490] PP is all very subjective your not gonna chop your dog to pieces to make him feel threatened.. its to make the dog think hes gonna die not actually killing it [/quote1327633680] Actually, you hardly ever make the dog think its gonna die. You almost always make it think it's gonna win. I think that is what Tonedog meant by "dicking around" or likened it to "tug of war" when it comes to PP trials. I have to agree with him that an actual test for true combat ability would rather be a real battle scenario (i.e. in a warzone), but that is just plain unrealistic these days. Since WWI dogs simply get shot, end of story. So people resort to PP to get high on what could happen should someone dare to attack them with a leather baton. [/quote1327636536]This is exactly why I think a Boerboel, Fila, or Kangal is good for a Bandog program because of the epigenetics invo;ved. Brasil, South Africa, and Pakistan have extreme conditions where one mistake can cost you your life. Just look at the intensity of these Mastiffs, they are on it [youtube]L2LbRYUyWKA[/youtube] [youtube]9SXHQCxwuXQ[/youtube]You just don't get Tosas or English Mastiffs like this, sorry Lee. [youtube]cIOmf69WNAU[/youtube] [youtube]lWfTTxPAgGs[/youtube] Absolutely amazing Kangal playing with a bear!
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                                                  • [quote1327637257=KeyserSoze] [quote1327636536=Astibus] [quote1327633680=tiger12490] PP is all very subjective your not gonna chop your dog to pieces to make him feel threatened.. its to make the dog think hes gonna die not actually killing it [/quote1327633680] Actually, you hardly ever make the dog think its gonna die. You almost always make it think it's gonna win. I think that is what Tonedog meant by "dicking around" or likened it to "tug of war" when it comes to PP trials. I have to agree with him that an actual test for true combat ability would rather be a real battle scenario (i.e. in a warzone), but that is just plain unrealistic these days. Since WWI dogs simply get shot, end of story. So people resort to PP to get high on what could happen should someone dare to attack them with a leather baton. [/quote1327636536]This is exactly why I think a Boerboel, Fila, or Kangal is good for a Bandog program because of the epigenetics invo;ved. Brasil, South Africa, and Pakistan have extreme conditions where one mistake can cost you your life. Just look at the intensity of these Mastiffs, they are on it [youtube]L2LbRYUyWKA[/youtube] [youtube]9SXHQCxwuXQ[/youtube] [/quote1327637257] that is exactly my thinking as well keyser I don't understand why we don't see more of these Bandogs. Atilla the APBT X FIla is supposed to one of the best in the region
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                                                    • I would love to see what Atilla looks like!
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                                                        • KeyserSoze, Giving a QUICK scan of the videos you posted...I saw some nice looking playful boerboels, but I didn't see any work. However, I did go through the videos quickly. If I missed something, can you point to a section of video that displays the dogs performing some working function? I have worked several boerboels and the breed is very inconsistent in terms of working ability. There are some nice looking prospects in some of the dogs though. Not that Eng. Mastiffs or Tosas are much better in GENERAL though...however the ones we used in our program were workers. I would have no objection to using a solid working class boerboel in a bandog program.
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                                                          • [quote1327639128=tiger12490] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKzWaa_H0qg [/quote1327639128] Thanks but I would never have guessed Fila in that, looks like straight Bully.
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                                                            • [quote1327639194=LeeRobinson] KeyserSoze, Giving a QUICK scan of the videos you posted...I saw some nice looking playful boerboels, but I didn't see any work. However, I did go through the videos quickly. If I missed something, can you point to a section of video that displays the dogs performing some working function? I have worked several boerboels and the breed is very inconsistent in terms of working ability. There are some nice looking prospects in some of the dogs though. Not that Eng. Mastiffs or Tosas are much better in GENERAL though...however the ones we used in our program were workers. I would have no objection to using a solid working class boerboel in a bandog program. [/quote1327639194] Oh I tend to see the potential in the way a dog moves and they have what I like to see, especially for a big dog. I mean the head size alone is unsurpassed bite force. I agree there is inconsistencies just as there are with a litter of Bandogs but when you get the right Boerboel it's a show stopper. With the Fila isn't about obedience, it's about always being on, that's why you never see them in Shutzhund lol Again this would be a yard dog in pairs to keep each other company and in no way a companion dog, just an attack dog.
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                                                              • Bite force is not a structural issue alone. Head type doesn't depend upon skull alone or muscle alone. For example, a bear appears to have a pronounced stop when viewed in the flesh, but when viewed in skeleton most bears do not have such a stop. The obtained that appearance not by bone...but by muscle. In addition, bite force is HUGELY contributed to by WILL TO BITE HARD. These are things we don't see when we look at the flesh. You don't get performance by using show breeding methods. Instead, you have to select from dogs that display ability.
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                                                                • Given the ability tests have shown that bite force is by the size of the skull to disperse the pressure. This is a picture of a wolf skull compared to a Pit skull and here is a video of a Tosa bite measurenot even trying just after a wolf making a defensive bite. start at 3:21[youtube]y-9UNEDbXAc[/youtube][br][link={e_FILE}public/1327640100_19198_FT86048_apbtwolfskull.jpg][img:width=500&height=479]{e_FILE}public/1327640100_19198_FT86048_apbtwolfskull_.jpg">[/link][br]
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                                                                  • Too small a sample to be scientific IMO. How many dog actually have their bites tested. Are those dogs good representations of the breed?Did those dogs actually want to bite the meter hard? Is bite force the only thing that makes the dog successful at the task? We can't breed just "one component" in a working dog. You have to breed to the entire animal.
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                                                                    • Of course but the entire animal is the sum of it's parts.
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                                                                      • We can't breed to just one part. To use a boerboel just because it looks right is like comparing a show bred Am Staff to a game bred APBT and then betting on the show dog.
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                                                                        • [quote1327642336=LeeRobinson] Too small a sample to be scientific IMO. How many dog actually have their bites tested. Are those dogs good representations of the breed?Did those dogs actually want to bite the meter hard? Is bite force the only thing that makes the dog successful at the task? We can't breed just "one component" in a working dog. You have to breed to the entire animal. [/quote1327642336] As it comes to this video in question, I would have to agree with Lee. There are just too many influencing factors to make any reliable conclusions. Let alone the laughable "I've heard the Kangal" argument. I've also heard 2000lbs and even 7000lbs when it comes to Kangals. That sort of exaggeration is known in eastern cultures. Very telling were the last 10 seconds, where a Kangal is depicted right next to a real lion. Anyone who thinks that Kangal has more bite force than that lion is delusional. Even the National Geographic study is way too thin scientifically speaking, they compared apples to oranges and even then apparently just one apple to one orange.
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                                                                          • [quote1327642717=LeeRobinson] To use a boerboel just because it looks right is like comparing a show bred Am Staff to a game bred APBT and then betting on the show dog. [/quote1327642717] Very good analogy. Fully agreed actually.
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                                                                            • [quote1327642779=KeyserSoze] [img:width=500&height=479]{e_FILE}public/1327640100_19198_FT86048_apbtwolfskull_.jpg"> [/quote1327642779] Now, as it goes for the skull comparison depicted here, one can very well derive insight into the respective bite force. When we examine the parietal braincase in size of the temporal fossa and especially the heavily protruding skull ridge (on the wolf), one can accurately assess the size of the termporalis, a massive jaw closing muscle. Same goes for the broad zygomatic arches where the masseters originate. These anatomical structures are much more precise to assess the actual bite force of an animal. And then, a wolf has a 33% larger skull than any dog of the same weight and body size.
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                                                                              • [QUOTE]I am just wondering why experienced K9 officers (in case they were) would favor anything but proven police K9s.[/QUOTE] I actually think anyone would be wise to choose a bandog over a police k9 as a home and family guardian. One thing for sure is bandogs are much more low key, laid back and un-demanding pets, ie better pets, compared to highly strung hyperactive working police dogs. Much much better suited to a family household. People who professionally work with police k9s might understand this better than anyone. For me the thing with bandogs and PP is you just have to check that they're willing to engage a human, keep them fit, and then trust their evolutionary adaptations for big game subjugation are still in tact for if a real situation goes down. To me that's bandogs as pp dogs in a nutshell, so whether you're testing them here or there or in whose backyard is really unimportant. It's not a real serious test of their combative ability, their combative ability is there (if it is) thanks to their heritage as big-game subjugation dogs, varying degrees of that combative capacity can be retained depending on breeding practices.
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                                                                                • All the K9 officers I know had a trained GSD as their family companion. Not all police K9s are as hyper as the crazy Malinois - not even all Mals are. That is why I asked. Maybe there are regional differences in this preference though, who knows.
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                                                                                  • Just for clarification, I was talking about [u]official[/u] police K9 officers, not some private security guards or contractors. Members of the K9 units of a regular police department. So for these people, hearing the statements above surprises me somewhat, as it doesn't reflect my personal experience at all. (Well, I remember one guy who also owned a small apbt, but he regarded that dog as a mere pet. He also had his K9 GSD that he was very proud of.)
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                                                                                    • I think it has more to do with the type of family and home a person has...but of course personal preference plays a role too. I was referring to police officers, a few K9 officers, a few police dog trainers two that provide k9 certification program instructors...one of which is former french ring II certified decoy as well as a private security contractor...one with some government contracts that tends to do some k9 based contract work overseas for other parties (training police k9 instructors), and the other has had some VERY large government contracts in the middle east.
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                                                                                      • Yeah, I can certainly see how this preference away from GSDs would be the case for "VERY large government contractors in the middle east", such as Blackwater (or what is it these days, Academi?). That actually makes sense.
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                                                                                        • Apparently clarification is in order. As I stated earlier, the dogs I sold them were NOT for for patrol work...but for home use as their family and estate guardians. Again, if you need names, you can contact me.
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                                                                                          • Ah ok. Yeah, that clarifies it. (You definitely mentioned it before, and it registered accordingly, but subsequently it somehow appeared that some of them were used as duty dogs.) No need for names, I trust your word on this. :)
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                                                                                            • [quote1327725939=cawkazn] it looks to be like a molosser that went feral. where as most feral dogs around the world such as the dingo for example come from the spitz(guess) family? or whatever family they are you guys get what i mean most the feral dogs are not from molosser they are from whatever. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/perrocimarron.htm check these pics i found [/quote1327725939] if you guys didnt check these pics you should........it diplays the dog in a different way.....look at the dog "dingo" and how similar it is to a pariah type dog
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                                                                                              • [quote1327745326=Tonedog] It's not a real serious test of their combative ability, their combative ability is there (if it is) thanks to their heritage as big-game subjugation dogs, varying degrees of that combative capacity can be retained depending on breeding practices. [/quote1327745326] Tonedog,even though i am a certified city boy,i do understand and agree with your point. A mentor of mine down in Texas,who owns only serious protection dogs...has reminded me that the only thing he knows that can actually simulate a hypothetical pissed off drugged up 300 lbs. man breaking in your door.....is to test them on a hog. He says that when the dog is faced up against something that is actually trying to kill them....this is the only true [u]TEST[/u] of whether or not your dog will quit on you when the chips are down........however ,,,he also sates that you should [u]always test[/u] your personal dog in some available public protection trial....at least once....because it will be a [u]test[/u] in unfamiliar place against a unfamiliar human,and also the fact that you and your dog have to work as a single unit and your own abilities to handle the situation and control your dog should the need arise.You will be testing your bond as well. And i always say,remember that a personal protection's dog main purpose(for us) is to protect the person from harm----a serious personal protections dog's true worth....involves much,much, more than just testing his combat ability and/or fighting some guy with a baton...I see many people overlooking this fact,and think it's all about this sleeve biting and teaching a "proper" full bite/grip they see on video......example: if two young punks don't see my dog in the car,and tries to assault/snatch my GF's purse at a gas station.....I don't want my dog so caught up in combating/dispatching one punk(hog),that the other punk has time to still continue to assault & violently snatch her jewelry off and steal the car. Also,the purpose and worth of a serious PP companion type dog also lies in it's socialization and availability for use in a public setting ...having a sentry dog with a fierce disposition,that isn't safe in public and rarely having visitors...is a different type of dog.....a different function. [quote1327661628=Tonedog] For me the thing with bandogs and PP is you just have to check that they're willing to engage a human, keep them fit, and then trust their evolutionary adaptations for big game subjugation are still in tact for if a real situation goes down. [/quote1327661628] Absolutely,you do have to check them against a human ....but I also feel that it does make a difference where you check them ,in your backyard or familiar surroundings......or,say driving 5 hrs away to some neighboring state,staying in a hotel overnight,then walking out on a field with strangers and strange dogs then suddenly get charged at by two suited guys wearing football helmets....you will be able to see if your dog will be more inclined to protect you....rather than protect himself ....ie. quit. Now,if you have trained for this scenario?.then you will be there testing your training....but if you truly want to test your dogs raw Genetics/Breeding--and your breeding stock?......then you will be there testing the dog,every single dog........i've witnessed "working breeders" do exactly this to see what they had. I do(so i know what i am feeding) fully intend on getting my personal dog out there with someone with experience and testing my dog as mentioned above...but in in the meantime of that,i've most definitely tested against a man,as well as several other judged stability/temperment tests to know my personal protection dog can actually function in a crowded city enviornment without fear of my dog 'misfiring". Like i said,I'm a city guy Tonedog/Gun,so I'll admit that I don't know from experience,so my question is: If you have a dog that his dispatched some of the toughest boars,coyotes and wolves there is,but has never seen or faced an aggressive human(or even a passive human holding a knife)....does that automatically translate into a dog that will protect you and loved ones from a bad guy? , little t
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                                                                                                • Good post. [QUOTE]Like i said,I'm a city guy Tonedog/Gun,so I'll admit that I don't know from experience,so my question is: If you have a dog that his dispatched some of the toughest boars,coyotes and wolves there is,but has never seen or faced an aggressive human(or even a passive human holding a knife)....does that automatically translate into a dog that will protect you and loved ones from a bad guy?[/QUOTE] No it definitely doesn't. I'd say most hunting dogs aren't protective and are even actively bred to not be protective on purpose. Which is why I said testing that a dog is willing to treat an aggressing bad guy like he's a boar is a good idea if you want a protection dog, but if you tick that box (and it only should take one 60 second little check really), and then the dog also has a career as a boar - lugging dog. Then you can be sure you've got a dog that a) will protect, and b) can handle itself combatively and take punishment and pressure and stress and etc. The latter will have been tested by the boars. But yeah it's possible to have a dog perfectly capable of protecting you, but lacking the understanding that it's allowed to or the nerve to dare engage a human. Most boardogs would fit this bill honestly, so a pp dog is a special dog for sure (realistically rarer and harder to find than a good boar dog), but it's not really tested unless it does something else IMO.
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                                                                                                  • You make some good points, that's why I think it doesn't make sense to cross 2 fighting dogs for a Bandog.
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                                                                                                    • I think this is the perfect dog for a Bandog program instead of Tosa,NM,EM,or GD. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjA1MDg0MDQ4.html
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