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Bandogs made by the cross APBT x Fila Brasileiro

Few minutes ago I was taking a look at this site: http://www.linhagemengenho.com Sure that most of you guys won't understand what is writen there but It's about Fila in Brazil and have nice pic's of old Filas of 50's and 60's. Real working dogs, unregister and not that close to breed standards, used to guard and cattle drive during several days, unlike today's show dogs that barely can stand up after 30 minutes of light exercises
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Replies (52)
    • Being rural helps...but isn't enough. A country side setting is nice looking, but in the videos on that sight/link I simply saw mountains and an old man sitting in a chair. Yes, I couldn't tell what he was saying...but to produce WORKING class guard dogs, you can't just let dogs run in the hills. Hey, I believe in running a dog for work and for a test, but that alone does not make a protection dog. To know this, you have to test for it. One problem found in many filas is insecurity. Many are fear biters and simply lack the confidence needed for off leash work or even on leash work off their property. To know if a dog is a PP dog, you have to work them as a protection dog and see which ones pass the test. http://www.chimerakennels.com/videogallery.htm
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      • [quote=brazillianbandogge] The health problems have been deleted using the ancient methods of natural selection observing the dogs in the field doing many workings.[/quote] I would like to see actual scientific proof of this claim. Documented by an unbiased scientific organisation.
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        • Ok...go to the OFA website and look up the stats on the following breeds...breeds that were selected on the basis of function and ability to work and perform. Ask and you shall receive. http://www.offa.org/stats.html Remember though, the OFA testing didn't make these dogs great or terrible. What made them great was performance testing and what made them terrible is show breeding for non-function. It is always the same old same old nonsense from Brad...but Brad, some day I hope you open your mind to the truth...and wise up. Husky, APBT, and other HISTORICALLY working dogs seen in the best 25% best. The FIRST number is the rank (higher number being best, 1 being worst). The LAST number is the percent displastic (1ower being best, higher being worse). DOBERMAN PINSCHER 113 12814 17.7 6.1 KERRY BLUE TERRIER 114 1273 12.6 6.0 FINNISH SPITZ 115 292 17.1 5.8 AFGHAN HOUND 116 5950 28.9 5.8 AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 117 24292 15.2 5.8 SHIBA INU 118 2211 17.1 5.7 TIBETAN TERRIER 119 3148 29.6 5.7 DUTCH SHEPHERD 120 108 20.4 5.6 ENGLISH COCKER SPANIEL 121 5643 16.9 5.6 BELGIAN MALINOIS 122 1808 17.3 5.6 SCHIPPERKE 123 317 9.8 5.4 RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK 124 8748 21.0 5.4 IRISH WOLFHOUND 125 1382 26.2 5.4 NORTH AMERICAN SHEPHERD 126 327 16.5 5.2 DALMATIAN 127 2751 9.1 4.8 SHETLAND SHEEPDOG 128 15396 26.9 4.8 SOFT COATED WHEATEN TERRIER 129 5100 16.0 4.6 GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER 130 12291 24.3 4.5 FLAT-COATED RETRIEVER 131 4236 17.6 4.4 BORDER TERRIER 132 1753 18.6 3.7 BELGIAN TERVUREN 133 4695 24.8 3.6 IBIZAN HOUND 134 245 35.1 3.3 BASENJI 135 1882 23.6 3.2 BELGIAN SHEEPDOG 136 3320 32.0 2.8 COLLIE 137 2459 28.1 2.7 GREYHOUND 138 298 36.6 2.3 RAT TERRIER 139 186 11.3 2.2 SIBERIAN HUSKY 140 15273 32.8 2.0 PHARAOH HOUND 141 352 15.1 2.0 CANAAN 142 346 16.2 2.0 AUSTRALIAN TERRIER 143 155 5.2 1.9 WHIPPET 144 106 30.2 1.9 BORZOI 145 789 30.7 1.8 SALUKI 146 241 43.2 1.7 GERMAN PINSCHER 147 208 25.0 1.0 ITALIAN GREYHOUND And then compare them to the worst 25% found in show dogs...such as... BULLDOG 1 383 0.3 73.9 PUG 2 342 0.0 62.6 DOGUE DE BORDEAUX 3 256 0.4 55.9 OTTERHOUND 4 280 0.0 50.7 NEAPOLITAN MASTIFF 5 136 0.7 48.5 ST. BERNARD 6 1960 4.2 46.7 CLUMBER SPANIEL 7 626 2.9 45.0 BLACK RUSSIAN TERRIER 8 170 2.4 44.7 SUSSEX SPANIEL 9 203 1.0 44.3 CANE CORSO 10 452 6.9 39.6 BOYKIN SPANIEL 11 1968 1.2 37.5 ARGENTINE DOGO 12 128 3.9 37.5 BASSET HOUND 13 186 0.0 36.0 FRENCH BULLDOG 14 419 1.2 33.9 AMERICAN BULLDOG 15 1328 5.1 32.8 NORFOLK TERRIER 16 172 0.0 32.0 PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO 17 115 3.5 30.4 FILA BRASILEIRO 18 574 7.3 29.1 ENGLISH SHEPHERD 19 207 6.8 25.6 NEWFOUNDLAND 20 12586 7.2 25.6 BLOODHOUND 21 2383 2.4 25.5 AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 22 2367 1.9 25.4 LOUISIANA CATAHOULA LEOPARD 23 341 7.3 25.2 BULLMASTIFF 24 4500 3.6 24.5
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          • [quote=LeeRobinson]Ok...go to the OFA website and look up the stats on the following breeds...breeds that were selected on the basis of function and ability to work and perform. Ask and you shall receive. http://www.offa.org/stats.html Remember though, the OFA testing didn't make these dogs great or terrible. What made them great was performance testing and what made them terrible is show breeding for non-function. It is always the same old same old nonsense from Brad...but Brad, some day I hope you open your mind to the truth...and wise up. Husky, APBT, and other HISTORICALLY working dogs seen in the best 25% best. The FIRST number is the rank (higher number being best, 1 being worst). The LAST number is the percent displastic (1ower being best, higher being worse). DOBERMAN PINSCHER 113 12814 17.7 6.1 KERRY BLUE TERRIER 114 1273 12.6 6.0 FINNISH SPITZ 115 292 17.1 5.8 AFGHAN HOUND 116 5950 28.9 5.8 AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 117 24292 15.2 5.8 SHIBA INU 118 2211 17.1 5.7 TIBETAN TERRIER 119 3148 29.6 5.7 DUTCH SHEPHERD 120 108 20.4 5.6 ENGLISH COCKER SPANIEL 121 5643 16.9 5.6 BELGIAN MALINOIS 122 1808 17.3 5.6 SCHIPPERKE 123 317 9.8 5.4 RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK 124 8748 21.0 5.4 IRISH WOLFHOUND 125 1382 26.2 5.4 NORTH AMERICAN SHEPHERD 126 327 16.5 5.2 DALMATIAN 127 2751 9.1 4.8 SHETLAND SHEEPDOG 128 15396 26.9 4.8 SOFT COATED WHEATEN TERRIER 129 5100 16.0 4.6 GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER 130 12291 24.3 4.5 FLAT-COATED RETRIEVER 131 4236 17.6 4.4 BORDER TERRIER 132 1753 18.6 3.7 BELGIAN TERVUREN 133 4695 24.8 3.6 IBIZAN HOUND 134 245 35.1 3.3 BASENJI 135 1882 23.6 3.2 BELGIAN SHEEPDOG 136 3320 32.0 2.8 COLLIE 137 2459 28.1 2.7 GREYHOUND 138 298 36.6 2.3 RAT TERRIER 139 186 11.3 2.2 SIBERIAN HUSKY 140 15273 32.8 2.0 PHARAOH HOUND 141 352 15.1 2.0 CANAAN 142 346 16.2 2.0 AUSTRALIAN TERRIER 143 155 5.2 1.9 WHIPPET 144 106 30.2 1.9 BORZOI 145 789 30.7 1.8 SALUKI 146 241 43.2 1.7 GERMAN PINSCHER 147 208 25.0 1.0 ITALIAN GREYHOUND And then compare them to the worst 25% found in show dogs...such as... BULLDOG 1 383 0.3 73.9 PUG 2 342 0.0 62.6 DOGUE DE BORDEAUX 3 256 0.4 55.9 OTTERHOUND 4 280 0.0 50.7 NEAPOLITAN MASTIFF 5 136 0.7 48.5 ST. BERNARD 6 1960 4.2 46.7 CLUMBER SPANIEL 7 626 2.9 45.0 BLACK RUSSIAN TERRIER 8 170 2.4 44.7 SUSSEX SPANIEL 9 203 1.0 44.3 CANE CORSO 10 452 6.9 39.6 BOYKIN SPANIEL 11 1968 1.2 37.5 ARGENTINE DOGO 12 128 3.9 37.5 BASSET HOUND 13 186 0.0 36.0 FRENCH BULLDOG 14 419 1.2 33.9 AMERICAN BULLDOG 15 1328 5.1 32.8 NORFOLK TERRIER 16 172 0.0 32.0 PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO 17 115 3.5 30.4 FILA BRASILEIRO 18 574 7.3 29.1 ENGLISH SHEPHERD 19 207 6.8 25.6 NEWFOUNDLAND 20 12586 7.2 25.6 BLOODHOUND 21 2383 2.4 25.5 AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 22 2367 1.9 25.4 LOUISIANA CATAHOULA LEOPARD 23 341 7.3 25.2 BULLMASTIFF 24 4500 3.6 24.5[/quote] Where are the statistic for the mutt,,,oh excuse me, I mean Bandog :roll: :roll: FYI: Your own distinction between "working" and "show" breeds is laughable. Shiba Inu are amongst the best (in good hip scores) and in Japan, Europe and the USA the Shiba in modern times such as these are 90% pets and showdogs while the English Shepard and the Catahoula are 90% on working farms and niether are recognized by either FCI or AKC. Nice try though.
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            • "Brad The Ostrich Cofield" I will let you figure out why I give you that name. :roll:
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              • [quote="LeeRobinson"]"Brad The Ostrich Cofield" I will let you figure out why I give you that name. :roll:[/quote] Pat yourself on the back Harold, you deserve it :roll: :idea: . Back to the topic at hand. Where is the documented proof that these dogs are totally free of any genetic or enviormentally induced health problem?
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                • Ostrich, "totally free" would be incorrect. MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely however is a fact. Not only on hips, but working breeds are healthier all around. If you don't accept it, that's fine...keep your head in the sand. However, you asked for the facts, and I gave you a link that correlates the frequency of several disorders to various breeds. Funny however how the breeds that do the best are also breeds that were developed not from show, but from working origins. http://www.offa.org/stats.html Study up.
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                  • [quote=LeeRobinson]Ostrich, "totally free" would be incorrect. MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely however is a fact. Not only on hips, but working breeds are healthier all around. If you don't accept it, that's fine...keep your head in the sand. However, you asked for the facts, and I gave you a link that correlates the frequency of several disorders to various breeds. Funny however how the breeds that do the best are also breeds that were developed not from show, but from working origins. http://www.offa.org/stats.html Study up.[/quote] None of your dogs are or have been tested. None of your claims can be backed by any independant scientific body. Again, I am asking where is the scientific proof?
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                    • Ostrich, Seriously now, why not pull your head out of the sand and get a clue to what is really going on?
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                      • Show me the scientific proof.
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                        • Casting pearls to swine apparently is a useless task. Before I give you any more scientific proof, pull your head out of the sand and look at the data already provided.
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                          • This topic have been creating to discuss about Fila x APBT crosses. Please do not polluted here with those statement just to increase your points in molossos...
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                            • [quote=LeeRobinson]Casting pearls to swine apparently is a useless task. Before I give you any more scientific proof, pull your head out of the sand and look at the data already provided.[/quote] You showed me statistics from the OFA database (you do not use OFA but that is another topic) and thatis all well and good. BUT, that database does not show any statistical data for mutts. Where is the scientific proof that mutts are totally free from genetic problems?
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                              • [quote=brazillianbandogge]This topic have been creating to discuss about Fila x APBT crosses. Please do not polluted here with those statement just to increase your points in molossos...[/quote] YOu made a very strong claim. When you do that you should expect people to ask you to back that claim up.
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                                • It has nothing to do with "mutts," but performance selection. Dogs that are bred and tested to work may not be perfect and flawless...but they are VASTLY superior in health and ability to dogs traditionally bred for show or non-working purposes. You know why working dogs are more able and healthier??? Because if the dog has a problem it isn't excused but instead removed from the breeding stock. Show breeders however don't remove a dog that is unhealthy if it looks good. In fact, many breeds are often bred to look pathetic on purpose...take the Neapolitan Mastiff, Sharpea, or English Bulldog...distorted on purpose. And, it is no wonder those breeds top the list with problems.
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                                  • [quote=LeeRobinson]It has nothing to do with "mutts," but performance selection. Dogs that are bred and tested to work may not be perfect and flawless...but they are VASTLY superior in health and ability to dogs traditionally bred for show or non-working purposes. You know why working dogs are more able and healthier??? Because if the dog has a problem it isn't excused but instead removed from the breeding stock. Show breeders however don't remove a dog that is unhealthy if it looks good. In fact, many breeds are often bred to look pathetic on purpose...take the Neapolitan Mastiff, Sharpea, or English Bulldog...distorted on purpose. And, it is no wonder those breeds top the list with problems.[/quote] You do zero genetic testing. Harold, you have no idea what you have and what you don't simply because you have never tested any of it. If you want to hype the mutts you produce go ahead. Want to say that they are the best thing since sliced bread, fine. However, you cannot state that they are "healthier" than anything else simple because you do not know. Again, where is the scientific proof? I know I am supposed to believe you and the other mutt wonderkids because you guys tell me so, that just doesn't fly with me.
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                                    • If you don't want to believe me, fine. Don't. That is your choice. Keep your head in the sand. HOWEVER, if you wish to do that, then don't waste my time asking me questions...because I gave you an answer. Now, it is your job to do the research (investigate the data provided). I have spent the last several hours working with 10 different pups. Spent the day working with 7 different dogs. What have you done? Typed on a message board and wasted my time. That is why I call you an ostrich and that is why having a conversation with you is throwing pearls to swine. To me, you are just a frustrating irritant that has no desire to pursue the truth. I think the board was FAR BETTER when Brad Cofield was banned. Why the administration keeps letting you come back, I have no idea. In biology they have a term for your types. Parasite. You do nothing but harm the host (the board). You have never bred working dogs. You only destroy what others have created...which is why you never answered the questions I asked you on the last topic. Now...I have a lot of working dogs that require a ton of my time. I can't spend my life helping those that won't help themselves. The information has been provided. Why not review it and learn. Study the working dogs and their stats. Do that, and you will have your answer.
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                                      • [quote=LeeRobinson]If you don't want to believe me, fine. Don't. That is your choice. Keep your head in the sand. HOWEVER, if you wish to do that, then don't waste my time asking me questions...because I gave you an answer. Now, it is your job to do the research (investigate the data provided). I have spent the last several hours working with 10 different pups. Spent the day working with 7 different dogs. What have you done? Typed on a message board and wasted my time. That is why I call you an ostrich and that is why having a conversation with you is throwing pearls to swine. To me, you are just a frustrating irritant that has no desire to pursue the truth. I think the board was FAR BETTER when Brad Cofield was banned. Why the administration keeps letting you come back, I have no idea. In biology they have a term for your types. Parasite. You do nothing but harm the host (the board).[/quote] Go ahead and call me all the names you want. I will endorse those names as a badge of honor. Back to the topic at hand: Where is the scientific data to prove that mutts (Bandogs, Swinfords, Uncl'e Billy's Miracle Dogs, Puff The Magic Dragon etc.) are totally free from any genetic problems? I'm waiting.
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                                        • Ostrich, apparently you can't read...as I never said they were totally free of any or all health problems. In fact, if you go back and read for a change you will see I mentioned they are not free of all health problems. However, what you will see is I stated PERFORMANCE TESTED WORKING DOGS (any breed...mutt or cross) have MUCH FEWER problems than non-performance SHOW dogs. Of course, for you to know this (as well as to find your answer) you would have to read. And to do that, you would have to pull your head out of the sand.
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                                          • Marcos , Lots of questions not sure if you want to answer them all but I am fascinated with your dogs. How many litters have you had with APBT x Fila? What is temperment like is it consistent in the litter and how are their health? The old brazillian Fila's with no socialization and high ojeriza are they similar to your APBT x Fila bandogge? Where did you find the white Fila and did you use it in your program is he still in your breeding progam? How often does a litter produce a white Fila? Lee, I like Preacheman what is his percentage of breeds? Is he part APBT?
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                                            • [quote="LeeRobinson"]. However, what you will see is I stated PERFORMANCE TESTED WORKING DOGS (any breed...mutt or cross) have MUCH FEWER problems than non-performance SHOW dogs./quote] Where is your scientifically based documented proof of this?
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                                              • Ostrich, talking to you is like having a person ask what 2+2 is. Then I answer them and yet you ask again. I answer it again, and you ask again. The data you look for is already provided. If you don't want to look at it, that is fine...but then why ask? AlphaBlueBloodBulldog, Preacher-Man is a first generation Swinford. He was produced here...his mother is my 9 year old working class English Mastiff that we refer to as Eclipse (her registered name is Shadow...and Brad, my EM bitch happens to be OFAed good btw...here is her data from the OFA database... http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1074791#animal ) and she can still work. Preacher-Man's sire is out of legendary Sorrell's performance proven APBT stock straight from Bert Sorrell's yard and of pure Sorrells stock for many generations. Preacher-Man is performance proven as well.
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                                                • Lee, Can you post the pic of him in the back of the truck. When you bred this litter did it breed consistent in type? He's an impressive looking dog. What is his weight in lbs and temperment like?
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                                                  • [quote=AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog]Lee, Can you post the pic of him in the back of the truck. When you bred this litter did it breed consistent in type? He's an impressive looking dog. What is his weight in lbs and temperment like?[/quote] The litter was very consistent. Here is Preacher-Man in the truck. Here he is working Roger Abshire of USK9. Here is his brother/littermate at 15 months... His littermate sister... His daugher (at only 7 months)... Another photo of his daughter at 7 months... You can find more photos of him and other relatives on my website if you wish. http://www.chimerakennels.com
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                                                    • Lee, Impressive.
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                                                      • BrazilianBandogge, To help get this topic back on topic...do you have any video footage of any fila bred bandogs doing any off leash protection work. Personally, I have found the fila to be very defensive, but to lack nerve and lack the confidence needed for off leash work...so if you have any footage of such I would enjoy seeing it.
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                                                        • [quote=LeeRobinson]BrazilianBandogge, To help get this topic back on topic...do you have any video footage of any fila bred bandogs doing any off leash protection work. Personally, I have found the fila to be very defensive, but to lack nerve and lack the confidence needed for off leash work...so if you have any footage of such I would enjoy seeing it.[/quote] Video from my dogs... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3674168809768246824&q=redcapo%27s&total=24&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1898707088467642447&q=redcapo%27s&total=24&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7 [url][/url]
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                                                          • [blockquote]How many litters have you had with APBT x Fila? What is temperment like is it consistent in the litter and how are their health? [/blockquote] 4 litters. In the F1 its impossible for any breed mix. I use health dogs from both sides , the problem is that Filas have some genetic problems because the heavy weight they have.... and the cross with apbt increase the vigor so could be born a dog that have some problem in low % and not show (hiden). The selection were made from the Famers no for me. I have been rescue those good dogs to my breeding when i need some characteristic... I have been using some knowlodge to select because i know my one bloodline.I have some lines in 11 generations till now. [blockquote] The old brazillian Fila's with no socialization and high ojeriza are they similar to your APBT x Fila bandogge?[/blockquote] Similar but different too. [blockquote]Where did you find the white Fila and did you use it in your program is he still in your breeding progam?[/blockquote] The white fila is not allowed by FCI and those line were rare. I deleted the white fila because they had scabies.Most of white dogs with rose skin have scabies and in Brazil weather these disease is a real problem. [blockquote]How often does a litter produce a white Fila?[/blockquote] I dont know.
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                                                            • [quote=LeeRobinson]BrazilianBandogge, To help get this topic back on topic...do you have any video footage of any fila bred bandogs doing any off leash protection work. Personally, I have found the fila to be very defensive, but to lack nerve and lack the confidence needed for off leash work...so if you have any footage of such I would enjoy seeing it.[/quote] My breeding program have been designed to fit the Brazilian Farmes needs. In my standard anyone could read that the temperament and conformation have this focus. The farmers do not need trainning dog .....they need a dog that do not eat to much, less agressive with all domestic animals, medium size 40kg, and rustic , resistent to all disease common here and protective with ojeriza to strangers. The guardian style is for defend the family, a home guardian. The rusticity is the major focus. The old filas from 1900's used by farmers were sort of dogs that received from time to time some infusion of pure Bulldogs and MAstiffs also hounds and these is the real fila a dog with vigor passing by the new blood and with natural selection. The modern tests are a good tools like OFA exams but the farmers dont like papers they like to see the rusticity. To be more clearly the average % of mortality in my kennels in farm places is around 90% .So just 10% survive from young age to adult. NATURAL SELECTION.
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                                                              • Marcos: "To be more clearly the average % of mortality in my kennels in farm places is around 90% .So just 10% survive from young age to adult." There seems to be a definate problem there. All dogs need to be cared for, spend time with, bond and form a relationship with one's dogs. Giving a dog the attention they deserve goes a long way in raising a psychologically and physically healthy dog. If excessive heat is an issue dogs should be brought into an area where they have shelter overhead and an area to cool down and always have plenty of water to drink in their bowls. Even if this area is outdoors in a kennel atmosphere as long as it has boards overhead to block the sun and a large fan blowing fresh air on the dogs, water bowls and a "kids pool" where the dogs can cool off in. Rusticity shouldn't be used as excuse for such a high mortality rate. I remember what happened to the Johnson Bulldogs you took in and what happened. I'm starting to question your breeding practices and whether you should be breeding at all. :evil:
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                                                                • [quote=AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog]Marcos: "To be more clearly the average % of mortality in my kennels in farm places is around 90% .So just 10% survive from young age to adult." There seems to be a definate problem there. All dogs need to be cared for, spend time with, bond and form a relationship with one's dogs. Giving a dog the attention they deserve goes a long way in raising a psychologically and physically healthy dog. If excessive heat is an issue dogs should be brought into an area where they have shelter overhead and an area to cool down and always have plenty of water to drink in their bowls. Even if this area is outdoors in a kennel atmosphere as long as it has boards overhead to block the sun and a large fan blowing fresh air on the dogs, water bowls and a "kids pool" where the dogs can cool off in. Rusticity shouldn't be used as excuse for such a high mortality rate. I remember what happened to the Johnson Bulldogs you took in and what happened. I'm starting to question your breeding practices and whether you should be breeding at all. :evil:[/quote] The way i bred is different, you need to understand many things, i have many partners and most of them live in rural sites and the farms here have they own cultural to raise dogs, most of them use to feed the dog a mix with milk and corn from many generations and the mortality rate was directly relation with those poor nutrition, in additional the litters were put together with the "curral" with milk cows and most of young dogs died from the paws of the cow. Snakes and bee also were comon problems that cause the mortality rates. You need to open your mind to understand whats rural places in Brazil are. In my yard specifically the rates are like urban Kennels 5% of mortality ...because i know how can bred dogs and i dont have more then 2 bitchs here. The Johnson Bulldogs I took died in his third day when mating one of my female, what happened was heart problem...
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                                                                  • Brazilian Bandogge, If you ever get a chance to get some bitework footage off leash...be sure to post it. I would like to see a fila dog work off leash.
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                                                                    • [quote=brazillianbandogge"][quote="LeeRobinson]BrazilianBandogge, To help get this topic back on topic...do you have any video footage of any fila bred bandogs doing any off leash protection work. Personally, I have found the fila to be very defensive, but to lack nerve and lack the confidence needed for off leash work...so if you have any footage of such I would enjoy seeing it.[/quote] My breeding program have been designed to fit the Brazilian Farmes needs. In my standard anyone could read that the temperament and conformation have this focus. The farmers do not need trainning dog .....they need a dog that do not eat to much, less agressive with all domestic animals, medium size 40kg, and rustic , resistent to all disease common here and protective with ojeriza to strangers. The guardian style is for defend the family, a home guardian. The rusticity is the major focus. The old filas from 1900's used by farmers were sort of dogs that received from time to time some infusion of pure Bulldogs and MAstiffs also hounds and these is the real fila a dog with vigor passing by the new blood and with natural selection. The modern tests are a good tools like OFA exams but the farmers dont like papers they like to see the rusticity. To be more clearly the average % of mortality in my kennels in farm places is around 90% .So just 10% survive from young age to adult. NATURAL SELECTION.[/quote] Again, where is the documented scientific proof that your mutts are resistent to all disease ? I am not talking about your own self promotion, but the documented scientific proof.
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                                                                      • brazillianbandogge, Are you saying nature determines which dogs live and breed as well as which dogs die (don't breed) in your program? If 90% of your dogs are killed by nature before they are a year old, personally....I see something wrong there. Either poor negligent care or unhealthy animals. Now, if you are saying you cull 90%, well...that isn't natural selection, but artificial selection. However, I have to ask...are you breeding for guarding (true bandog) abilities or are you breeding for the ability to survive on a farm? A bandog is supposed to be a guard dog. Maybe it is your translation with English, but it sounded as if you are saying you let nature select your stock and I hope that isn't the case...because if so, then you are not really breeding guard dogs or PP dogs. Do you test them in guarding or PP applications? Do you actually see which dogs will not only bark, but will also bite if needed...and stay in a battle to protect their pack and territory? Or do you just see which ones survive without giving them basic husbandry?
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                                                                        • [quote=LeeRobinson]brazillianbandogge, Are you saying nature determines which dogs live and breed as well as which dogs die (don't breed) in your program? If 90% of your dogs are killed by nature before they are a year old, personally....I see something wrong there. Either poor negligent care or unhealthy animals. Now, if you are saying you cull 90%, well...that isn't natural selection, but artificial selection. However, I have to ask...are you breeding for guarding (true bandog) abilities or are you breeding for the ability to survive on a farm? A bandog is supposed to be a guard dog. Maybe it is your translation with English, but it sounded as if you are saying you let nature select your stock and I hope that isn't the case...because if so, then you are not really breeding guard dogs or PP dogs. Do you test them in guarding or PP applications? Do you actually see which dogs will not only bark, but will also bite if needed...and stay in a battle to protect their pack and territory? Or do you just see which ones survive without giving them basic husbandry?[/quote] Actually my dogs are Brazilian Bullmastiff not Bandogs anymore since i have been registry my dogs. Also i couldnot control my parteners manager in their own farms i just tried to gave some advices but the cultural aspect control them. I have been selected by my standard just that . Scientific aproach began long time ago based in Natural Selection that way Darwin work was based. The deal that i have with farmers is based in % in the litter. All farmers search for a good dog to protect their property and they do this job very well. Also i dont care about if someone here do not beleive in my words. If you really like to know about my dogs just come here and you will see.
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                                                                          • Being dogs are domesticated and fed by humans, this isn't really "Darwinism" nor "Natural Selection." Also, if you pair up breedings, then you are referring to artificial selection. As far as calling them Brazilian Bullmastiffs, that is fine. I however, as would most people that by using the name "BrazilianBandogge" that you consider the ability to engage important (as it would also be with the old style bullmastiffs). However, it is reasonable for people to ask you to validate this. There are several ways to do this. You can use various tittles, or you can use photos and videos. Whatever floats your boat. Good luck.
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                                                                            • Lee doing some punching instead of being punched,lol. What titles would you suggest for Brazilian Bandogge?
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                                                                              • No...not punching at all. I am having conversation and sharing some thoughts with someone that is dedicated to their breed and is professional enough to stick with it. I don't think titles are necessary, especially with K9 politics in the sporting world being the way they are...but I don think it is best for a pp dog to EITHER have a title OR to show bitework of leash in a video. One of the two I think is good. Lord knows I haven't pursued titles. But, because of this I did go to a K9 Pro Sports event and participate...and we took first place in our division...however, IMO what is more important than a piece of paper is seeing the dogs actually work. That is why we have been making videos for years. I think this illustrates to others that the dogs do what they were bred to do.
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                                                                                • Titles are absolutley necessary, because they are objective mesures of success. Who would buy from an auto tuner who doesn't race? Just "certifing" one's own dogs or showing videos and pictures of dogs playing fechty fechy and tug of war on the sleeve proves little to nothing. Kind of like that non racing auto tuner just showing videos of a guy pulling donuts in a parking lot,,,wow, big deal.
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                                                                                  • Coming from a person that has never worked a dog in his life and has only bred show dogs...I can understand why you don't know what to look for even if a video was provided for you; however, some people would know what to look for...and for those of us that do a good video (if done right) can tell me more about a [u]dog[/u] than any title.
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                                                                                    • I dont have security cameras to show here my dogs doing what they are supposed to do. Produce a video simulated a real situation could be done by professional trainners , but is not my case .... In my case i have been breeding dogs for real situation, home family , those situation included kids around. My dog are not supposed to bite anyone that jump to my yard like probably yours.... One year ago one of my female stop a thief after he left the house with a TV.THe bitch jump and got the thief down and grip his neck and growl when he tryed to scape. The neighborhoods finded my employee and he took the bitch way and the thief survived. So the bitch had done her job for me. Because the thief was a common poor guy from the city without much hope and this life ...and the situation gave to him some advices... This bitch are APBT x Tosa inu and still my best female. Fila Brasileiro, English Bullmastif and Dogue de Bordeaux were breeds famous to do similar work. I have been seen my dogs do the same work when someone stranger came to my farm gate.The dogs didnot allowed people get in. These are good enough to most of situation.I dont need a M16 to defend my self. Natural Guardian behavior its something that i could not built a video to show. After you trainning your dog bite work they will probably kill anyone that invade your yard, right?If is a little kid searching for his ball.... I dont need dog like that.... I am not in WAR here.... But you probably will say that ..have you scientific proove? have you videos showing this ? The farmers here in Brazil have honor and they words value more than a thousand papers... I dont need to justify my hard work detracting the work of you or anyone from this comunnity...like you have been done.
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                                                                                      • Training and testing are two different things. If you don't train that is fine, but you can test a "realistic" situation by staging it...because if done correctly the dog won't know it is staged and should react. Without doing this, a breeder can't know for sure if they are breeding true guardians or not.
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                                                                                        • [quote="LeeRobinson"]Coming from a person that has never worked a dog in his life and has only bred show dogs...I can understand why you don't know what to look for even if a video was provided for you; however, some people would know what to look for...and for those of us that do a good video (if done right) can tell me more about a [u]dog[/u] than any title.[/quote] Well, coming from someone who has never gotten a show title, working title, temperment certification or health clearance of any kind I will take your comment with the lage grain of salt it deserves. The fact remains that working titles for people that claim to breed working dogs are absolutley essential and should be demanded by that client base. Us "show people" are unlikely to by from a breeder that doesn't show and just claims that they have superior stock. I do not see why "working dog" people should not demand the same level of subjective excellence? Again, I will use the auto tuner analogy. Why would someone dedicated to high performance buy a high performance engine from a company with no history of racing? Answer, they wouldn't.
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                                                                                          • Lee, How would your dogs react if a kid accidently wonders on your yard searching for his ball? Or anyones dogs?
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                                                                                            • It doesn't take a title to prove a dog. The dog can do that. A video can do it as well. I don't work for holiwood and create sci-fi type fictional videos...what you see is what you get. Actually, you get more than what you see...because some things are not for public eye. And the best part Brad is our dogs make it easy. As far as comparing stuff to the auto industry or any other industry...a title doesn't mean anything to them. If someone pulled up with a better engine and could prove it to them with a simple demonstration...they wouldn't tell the designer to leave and go get a title. :lol: They would want it before it was patented or purchased by someone else. Senor, First off, I don't tollerate unwarranted aggresion nor do I tollerate trespasswers...however, there are many "conditions" to your question. First...Am I there? Or am I not there? Is the dog socialized or not? Also, it would depend on the kid. Boy, girl, how old, child? Teenager? little? Big? Day? Night? etc... That is why I live in the middle of no where and have posted property.
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                                                                                              • [quote="LeeRobinson"]It doesn't take a title to prove a dog. The dog can do that. A video can do it as well. I don't work for holiwood and create sci-fi type fictional videos...what you see is what you get. Actually, you get more than what you see...because some things are not for public eye. And the best part Brad is our dogs make it easy. As far as comparing stuff to the auto industry or any other industry...a title doesn't mean anything to them. If someone pulled up with a better engine and could prove it to them with a simple demonstration...they wouldn't tell the designer to leave and go get a title. :lol: They would want it before it was patented or purchased by someone else. Senor, First off, I don't tollerate unwarranted aggresion nor do I tollerate trespasswers...however, there are many "conditions" to your question. First...Am I there? Or am I not there? Is the dog socialized or not? Also, it would depend on the kid. Boy, girl, how old, child? Teenager? little? Big? Day? Night? etc... That is why I live in the middle of no where and have posted property.[/quote] Of course you can say that Lee, you have never had a dog proven by subjective means and I doubt you ever will.
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                                                                                                • [blockquote]Of course you can say that Lee, you have never had a dog proven by subjective means and I doubt you ever will.[/blockquote] I think you mean objective means?...but, yes...I have. Do you think a professional like Roger Abshire of USK9 would be interested in my dogs without testing them? He provides dogs to police, military, and private business. He owns a perfect scoring KNPV dog. He also gave me a stainless steel 4 dog airconditioned trailer for 2 pups. Also, there is a French Ring level II certified decoy (which is the highest level of certification one can get in FR) that owns a K9 business and security company that wants 2 dogs from me for his own personal K9 guardians. He also travels the country to provide seminars throughout the country for police departments and last year decoyed in more FR competitions than any other decoy. He has done SchH, FR, KNPV, and more things than I can remember. There are many others. My dogs are owned not only by individuals looking for guardians, but also police officers that desire to have a home guardian after working with thugs all day...every day. So...Do you think these types of professionals made these decisions blindly? Real world people Ostrich don't stay on messageboards all day...which is why I have stated you waste too much of my valuable time. The truth has been provided for you. If you want to be an ostrich and keep your head in the sand so be it. It is a free world and you are welcome to be as ignorant (uninformed) as you wish to be.
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                                                                                                  • You have never earned any titles, performance certifications or health certfications and have never produced anything that has earned any either. Those are the facts at hand.
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                                                                                                    • Here is another fact...a few of the top trainers in the country that are responsible for training, titling, and decoying for MANY of the top FR dogs in the country and providing service dogs don't have just have a few dogs from other people, but want their own PP dogs to come from me. Now, why do I know they these trainers know dogs...well, because some of them are the best in the business. Some provide dogs to police, military, or private business with serious protection K9 needs. Another is a French Ring level II decoy (the highest level decoy one can get and there are only 11 such titled decoys in the country. Yet, after becoming very familiar with my dogs and their ability to work...this particular trainer wants not one, but two of my dogs for HIS OWN personal estate guardians to live in HIS HOME...and to be "demo" dogs for his K9 security business when he travels to do demonstrations. I think these facts are far more important an impressive than getting a title of a dog trained for a routine...and many professional trainers would agree.
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                                                                                                        Info
                                                                                                        Topic:
                                                                                                        Bandogs made by the cross APBT x Fila Brasileiro
                                                                                                        Text:
                                                                                                        Few minutes ago I was taking a look at this site: http://www.linhagemengenho.com Sure that most of you guys won't understand what is writen there but It's about Fila in Brazil and have nice pic's of old Filas of 50's and 60's. Real working dogs, unregister and not that close to breed standards, used to guard and cattle drive during several days, unlike today's show dogs that barely can stand up after 30 minutes of light exercises
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